Author LL Kirchner talks about "overdoing" the mindfulness stuff and how she found her peace

For author and screenwriter LL Kirchner, it's been a long journey to self-discovery and learning what works for her.  Moved around a lot as a child, she coped by drinking and smoking at a young age. After a difficult divorce, she left her job in Qatar to go to an intensive yoga teacher training class in India. There, she quit smoking easily and learned a lot about Yoga and Hinduism. She wrote her first book -- American Lady Creature: (My) Change in the Middle East -- about being in the mideast and seeing blatant mysogyny and cognitive dissonance (she remembers seeing completely covered women walking by Victoria Secret ads). Upon returning to the U.S, she observed that women were not treated that much better here. 

Struggling to find inner peace and meaning, she tried meditation and felt pressured to always try to improve on her mindfulness.  Her second book is deeply personal -- Blissful Thinking  - a memoir of overcoming the wellness revolution. It is the sweeping story of her search for nirvana that took her from university halls in the Persian Gulf to the streets of Manhattan to a sex cult in India.  The book is available September 26, 2023 by Molina Books.

From her website: "Blissful Thinking is the true story of how one womans' search for wellness kept her spiritually sick."

Fearing a return to her addictions, she tried every spiritual journey she can imagine—yoga, chanting, the sex cult—to regain her trust in the universe. But she kept returning to toxic relationships, until finally she realizedthe gift her mother had always given her—hope.

Daring to challenge the popular thinking that meditation is always good and we must engage in  constant "self-improvement" activities, she points out to us that it's really important to find what works for US, including the idea that not all types of meditation are good for you. And to remember that "you're really only as sick as your secrets."

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You can email LL at: more@llkirchner.com
Follow her on Instagram:   https://www.instagram.com/llkirchner_/
Check out her website: https://llkirchner.com

LL offers  a free workshop called "Unstick your Magic -- a creativity master class ," which is available when you pre-order Blissful Thinking:
https://llkirchner.involve.me/pre-order-workshop

To read a sample of Blissful Thinking:
https://llkirchner.com/free

This is also where you will find her meditation quiz that helps you discover which type of mediation fits you.

And finally, look for her novel coming soon called Florida Girls.

Books we mentioned in this episode:
The Grieving Brain** by Mary Francis O'Connor, Deana Gashman's piece on Time.com -- So sorry for your loss,
and Heartbreak by Florence Williams.



**Note-- Lynne got the name wrong of the grief book (it's not "The Brain on Grief"

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Original music "Saturday Sway" by Brendan Talian

Transcript

Unknown: 0:01

Hello, you've reached the storied human podcast hosted by me Lynne Thompson. Each week I share a story, either an interview with someone fascinating, or a short solo from me. I love your stories, and I learned so much from them. Hopefully you will too. So welcome. If you are new here, I'm so happy to have you. If you are a returning listener, many things. So here it is the next episode of The Story human Hello and Welcome to the Storied Human. Today I have a wonderful guest LL Kirchner, an award-winning screenwriter and author, her next book Blissful Thinking, a memoir of overcoming the wellness revolution will be out September 26 2023. Her work has appeared in The Washington Post bomb magazine and brevity, she's currently working on her first novel Florida girls, find her on socials at ll Kirschner underscore or her website, Ll kirschner.com. And I will add that to the show notes. This little thinking is the sweeping story of ll Kershner. Search for Nirvana that took her from university halls in the Persian Gulf, to the streets of Manhattan to a sex cult in India, we definitely have to hear about that. And today, she'll share with us a little bit about why our stories matter, allowing for trust after betrayal, and finding your voice. It's all part of the journey she went on in her forthcoming book. And she offers a free five day course as well, which I'm definitely going to take five days to unlock your story. I noticed on your website, you also have a meditation quiz, which is really cool. To find out your best, the meditation that best suits you. So this is wonderful, welcome. It's so good to have you. I'm so tickled that you're here. And I would like to start with your own story. Like it sounded like you moved around a lot, which definitely informed what your life felt like and how popular you felt. And then you didn't move around. And that was a big change for you. Right? Well, Hi, Lynn, it is great to be here. First. This may sound weird, but you have such a great voice. I think we get people to tell you everything. I'm like I just want to tell you my secrets. I try really not to have any because as I have learned from mentors for many years, you're really only as sick as your secrets. And that's that's a big part of healing. But, you know, for a lot of us who are have overcome certain kinds of trauma. It really is a matter of learning who we can trust with our secrets in that I think is the balancing act. That can be really challenging. But just to give you a history, yes, we did move a lot when I was growing up. My my dad, oddly was in the steel industry. People always like oh, military. I'm like, No, he was we'd let's call him a visionary. He was ahead of his time. He he kept hopping, you know, jobs in like executive level administration of steel. So it's not, it's not like there was some crazy tragedy, we were going from one Rust Belt suburb to the next. But it is still very destabilizing these kinds of changes. Because one year, we're in Massachusetts, then we're in Pennsylvania, then we're in Michigan, then we're in Alabama, then we're back in Pennsylvania. And, you know, this was before the internet. So there was no way to go and find out like what are people wearing in this place? What what is popular music? What are people talking about? I mean, even the school systems weren't not that they are now but they weren't in any way synced. And it was during experimental education of the 70s. So, you know, I kept I studied, I think I studied the Civil War, like 10 times never learned anything about the American Revolution. You know what I'm saying? Like, happened to me too. A lot when I was younger, and they would go over something I'd already had in science. It's just it's, it's unnerving. And you were trying to fit in and that's hard to figure out. Yes, it's so hard to figure out. And I didn't like I desperately wanted to fit in. And I was so socially awkward. I can remember, you know, I would tell people this is I can't believe I'm about to say this, but like, I would tell people that I was from New England. Because you know, Massachusetts, you know, I thought it sounded very posh and and I would say where do you think I learned to talk like this? Like, is as if I was proving my point? I don't know. Anyway, because all we had to research a new place was the Encyclopedia Britannica and knowing the state bird really did nothing for my popularity. And you know, you're desperately trying to be popular. So that was your approach. didn't work very well though. I'm having Feeling it didn't work? Because I just felt like everybody had this handbook on what, how to be friends with people. I never got it. So the only option left was to be popular because I realized at a certain point, like, oh, popularity is not about really having friends, kind of everybody kind of is afraid of the popular kids like their, you know, it's a weird, different echelon. And I thought, well, maybe myself in there. So I would like try out for cheerleading and do all these things, which I never, I finally made when I got to eighth grade, and then we ended up staying in that place. And that just didn't work at all. As you mentioned earlier. It's hard when you're used to moving and it's like, Okay, I've sort of ascended to what I thought I could do. And now Wait, what do I how do I yeah, I didn't know how to have relationships. I didn't know how to have disagreements with people just like you were on you were off. Yeah, there's a rhythm to moving a lot. And you're used to that. And when it stops, you're like, wait a minute. You weren't used to that at all, like that long term kind of dealing with stuff that makes it represent that? Did you end up staying longer in some places than others? Well, we moved a lot to I was in sixth grade. And then we stayed and it was weird. Yeah, it was so weird. And just like you said, I mean, I didn't know how to do that. And I was, you know, I was like, those looked really young. So I was flat chested, and temporally and very unpopular. It was really tough. Like I couldn't like you, I couldn't figure out how to fit in. And I have this brutal memory of my friends gathering around me somehow I got friends and like a couple years, I actually got friends that gathered around me at my locker in high school. And they gave me for my birthday. A makeup bag full of makeup. And I was so weirded out. It's like, I have to buy makeup. Like it didn't even occur to me, you know, and they were trying to be nice. What? It was devastating. It was ninth grade. Yeah, I'm older than you. So maybe it was more like typical but I'm so you know, when I was in fifth grade, my my boyfriend boyfriend guy was going steady with I remember like us going steady started when he gave me a tub of this frosty blue Aziza eyeshadow. I was like now we're boyfriend, girlfriend. I don't think we ever kissed. It's funny how we had different reactions, because I kind of wanted to be an adult because it looked so childlike, right? Because I looked, I was flat chested. I didn't get pubic hair. You know what I mean? I was like, desperate to have my period just wanted to be older, it's very difficult to go that way. It is now where people seem to relish their youth more. Because it's become so commoditized through the internet and through you, through all the the world is really different now. So aware of that, like when you watch movies, right? Some stuff happens that couldn't possibly have happened if you had cell phones, right? Like people get lost in places you would never get lost, or they lose touch with someone you would never lose touch with. So it's just a really different sort of paradigm living now. And the kids growing up now it's different. So tell me, tell me about how you dealt with that. But getting planted somewhere? Not Well, I turned to drugs and alcohol. Yeah, I started drinking while I started drinking while we were still moving. And really it took me a very long time to even accept that there was a connection between my drinking and my inability to process difficult emotions. Yeah, they're just I had been in sobriety for decades. Before I finally I remember specifically being at a meeting. And this woman was talking about going home for the holidays, and all the chaos that ensued. And I don't know if you've seen it there. But like, I watched that Christmas scene. And I totally relate. I'm like, Oh, now I want to watch it. Yeah, I've heard about it on so good. Is she saying, you know, I went home for the holidays, and I couldn't get out there fast. And if and no wonder I drank. And it was like a spring uncoiled inside of me. And I finally was able, and I'm tagging decades of recovery therapy, you know, a totally get able to say, Oh, that. That is true for me, because I always felt and this is part of my thing, right? I always felt like well, I'm just letting myself off too easily if I claim like, like, like, I need to hold myself accountable. Like that's always been a big thing for me. Like somehow if I'm holding myself accountable, that's the only way that I can make forward progress. Which is which it took that took a lot of work to kind of undo and in a nutshell, that's sort of the story of blissful thinking. Like letting go of that need to make, you know, constantly like, create perfection, make myself better do it and hold myself accountable. And you know, it's interesting because I got into recovery at a young age because of the I started drinking and using drugs at a young age. And that message is very much part of 12 step recovery, which was the way that I went with it, that you are responsible for your behavior, and you only you can put the plug in the jug, as they like to say, that is true. And yet, when you're ultimately responsible for everything, it's not an adequate view of the thing, you are truly responsible for everything you don't have control. When I was a kid, there, I had no control over all of that moving. And it's really clear to me when I look back at my behavior that I didn't want to move, although I wouldn't have said that at the time, I'm quite aware that I was like, Oh, I love this movie, because it gives me a chance to reinvent myself, my behavior says, tells it kind of a different story. And I think what was missing was this, again, ability to process difficult emotions. And that just took me a really long time into my adulthood to realize like, I need tools like self soothing, I need to be able to give myself a break. Claiming that I'm a perfectionist, I'm hardest on myself, is not. We're not admirable. Because I feel like when I, what I recognized was when I finally learned to stop, like being a perfectionist, like turning that incisive look on myself all the time, I really recognized that I had been doing looking at the world through that same lens. You know, I might say that I was harshest on myself. And maybe that was true. But so what, like what who am I to hold anybody accountable right there. So there's layers, there's the layers of like, okay, I don't need to constantly keep myself on the hook. And I also don't need to do that to other people. I am so struck by your bravery, like the way you face things, it's just not what I hear all the time. And I think it's very inspiring. I also am struck with your whole, like approach in your book, because I personally have felt sort of, I don't know how to say it harassed by and sort of, it's just I don't think people mean to, but I'm connected to a lot of people on social media, who are constantly talking about being healthy and meditating, you know, mindfulness, and it's all at its core pretty good. But I have found recently, and I didn't really have words for it, and I'm so glad you wrote a book about it. I found like, it's just too much. I just want to rest, I just want to sometimes you just want to sit there in the sun, and not think about am I and also what's fascinating is, it's connected to being perfect. So you're trying to be perfect in this holistic way, right? You're trying to be the perfect mindfulness person, which totally defeats like the whole point of inner peace, because nobody's perfect. You'll never get there. I took a podcasting class before I started this podcast, and it was with a really famous podcaster, Cathy Heller. And she said something that just broke my head. And I totally get like how you learn things decades later, because this was, this was like, a revelation to me. She said, we're not a students. Here we are, see students move forward, your C's didn't move forward, just do it. And she said, we're not perfect start messy. Life is messy. Just, it's better, messy and done than perfect and never done. You're still planning. And that hit me like a ton of bricks, because I think good girls are always trying to be perfect, you know, the good grades. And we're always trying to look right, and we're always trying to act, right. And I think that that shocked me, I was like, Well, I'm not going to be a C student. I was always like an A student with these math. How can I be a C student? But if it kind of like, was the right time to hear that. So that's, I had a writing coach say the same thing to me recently. Like, you need to give that a C effort. And I was like, I can't choose like A B effort. I'm like, okay, I can try that. I felt so liberated by that. And it's so it's a little scary, because when you learn something that is actually kind of easy to do. You like why didn't you do the sooner? You know, I literally just started, I just started talking. I just, I asked one of my oldest friends, will you be on my podcast, and I just did it. And nobody was more shocked than me because I'm always like, afraid of judgment, right? I'm always super planning and over organizing. And this was so liberating. So I think in a strange way. All this mindfulness and positivity and they do talk about toxic positivity. I think they're onto something. But I think it's the same problem like you're not, you know, keep, you have to endlessly try to be perfect at being mindful, doesn't make any sense. I had the same issue, I think, with moving, which was something I kind of recognized, which is why there's a lot of threading of that through the book. I had, it was kind of the same issue, because I felt like everybody else has this is succeeding at this mindfulness, you know, people talk about, you know, blessed bliss, bliss felt like, oh, and I was just like, how about hashtag miserable like, even? And, and I, that that fed into the sense that I was doing something wrong. Yeah. And, and, and likewise, and some of that, again, this is something we haven't really talked about. It's this idea of prolonged grief, which I only learned about fairly recently, when I read a book by Florence Williams called heartbreak, which is a genius. Okay, it's a reported memoir, where she talks about all of these studies that she discovered in the wake of her divorce, where there was this phenomenon called prolonged grief, because, you know, used to sort of the common wisdom was was like, okay, grief, you're done. And then it's, it's six months later, and you're finished or a year max. I think that the first in the book, there are two crisis points that are revealed. The first one is when the husband leaves, but that harkens back immediately to when my first boyfriend died. And in the wake of that I was miserable for a couple of years before I finally picked up, but like, ultimately, I just couldn't take it. And I and I picked up because I did. And my fear was that I would do the same thing. Again, if I didn't record with that feeling of misery that also drove that idea that like, I need to get better, I need to not be miserable, which kind of makes you more miserable when you're trying to not think about that thing that you're thinking about. Yeah. And everyone around you. I mean, typical culture, right in American culture is okay. Like, you know, pick yourself up and move on, you have this sort of six months get movie, this is so close to my heart, because I lost my mom when I was had little kids. So it was about 21 years ago, it was very sudden and very shocking. And it just, I was it just threw me into an abyss. And I actually ended up going to a therapist, because I wasn't, you know, getting better on time, which is ridiculous. And she said, You know, I probably had complicated grief, which is grief mixed with depression. I was like, of course, you know, I'm an A type personality, I'm going to, you know, achieve the greater grief. I mean, I'm making fun, but it was, you know, people say, Well, you, I was told by my family members, you know, you have to go through a year each season without the person and then it will be better. Well, it took me two years to be like, semi normal. And it was only because I had kids, I swear. And my husband supported me and took them off on adventures when I was feeling down. I've written about this. I've talked about this on my podcast, I've written pieces for medium. It's just so I'm so amazed that you said that because I chose a quotation from your excerpt from your book. And here's the one I chose, oh, there's this a little bit of intro text. But this, this line blew me away. First, here's the intro text, didn't really know that what I wanted. And what I allowed myself to speak of, were two different things. Part of me was pleased to be pulling off my straight. And I was also disappointed Willie didn't know I was speaking. But why would he? It had been five years since my divorce. And I'd only been married for four and a half. My right to grieve had expired. Only no one had told my heart. I almost started crying when I read that because that is just so beautiful. And that's it, isn't it? No one had told your heart. And I'm think that we're not taught that that's normal, right? So we go and something must be wrong with me. I have to get over this. And in exploring this and talking to people and writing about it. It's just actually wrote, I actually listened to somebody who spoke at UCLA and she's like a neuro psychologist. And she does this wonderful thing where she lost her mother really early. So she has a personal experience. She's also a neuro psychologist. So she talks about what the brain actually does on grief. And I also took another course where they talked about grief unites us and we feel our humanity. And so you don't you don't feel that if you're not expressing what's true for you. If you're afraid that and I felt the same way like I should be better by now. You know? And that's, that's that's a really I would say damaging kind of thought. Absolutely. It is so damaging to the So because you're, it's what they call in Buddhism, the second arrow, first you have the injury relief. And then on top of it, you have the injury of telling yourself that you're wrong. And I mean, that's the kind of that is an oroboros of misery right there. Just how are you going to heal? Right? If you do that, that's such a, most of your point is well taken about. There's all kinds of grief and I don't know if they've recognized that a break up a breakup in a really meaningful relationship or a divorce. That's really grief. And so it led me to study ambiguous grief to like, that's, like, if you fascinating, I don't know about me, I've never heard of that. It's kind of like if you have an ex husband, and he does, and you're really sad. You're not supposed to be really sad. It gives you like a ton of bricks for some reason, right? Oh, that's fascinating. You're still connected to him. You're just sad. In general, you don't want to have kids with with that person, ya know, your assess your kids don't have their dad, even though maybe you have another partner. It's, it's all mixed up. And it's not acknowledged. And there's other kinds of ambiguous grief, even like about the planet, people are grieving about climate change and the downfall of you know, the atmosphere like the climate, and they don't know what to do with that. And that is a kind of grief. Also, there's so many people being laid off now. And this has happened to me, because in it, I'm a tech writer and I, I kind of work in on contract, and I'm forced to move a lot anyway. But when you get laid off, I was permanent at at a place like four years ago, I got laid off. And I was devastated. I loved that job. And I thought, This is real. This is a, you know, a place where I had friends. I saw people every day, I loved the work, I felt really happy. And now they don't want me, you know, which isn't true people. People lay you off for all kinds of reasons. And that was definitely a logical downsizing of our company. But it doesn't take away the fact that you said it's very true. And you're not allowed to be you're supposed to be professional and just move on. But it's I took forever to get past that. Or to understand that. Yeah. So there's all kinds of grief. I'm really fascinated by how we don't acknowledge it. Right there. Yeah, we're like the walking wounded. I swear we are. So not only a great title, the types of grief that never good. But you recognize that you figured that out? Until now, did you put your first boyfriend die? Like, long after you had broken up? There was are you younger? We were still together? Oh, no, that's ours. We think you were young. You were young. It was 24. And he was 26? Oh, no, it was really a devastating. I'm so sorry. I didn't want to have, again, that same experience. And I guess what I do want to say, though, is I thought I was doing it differently at first by taking a timeout at all, because you know, the thing that happened with the first boyfriend is I went into work the next day. But you know, I didn't know what else to do. Also, I had to work. I was very poor. I totally get it. Yeah, of course you did. Right. Of course, my second, you know, when my when my marriage fell apart, and I went to India, the idea was, I'm going to take a timeout, which I had never done anything like that before, really, except when I sort of forced them on myself for my relapse, you know what I mean? But I didn't want to have that desperately didn't want to relapse, but it really it's not a matter of action. It's more a matter of reaction, which I think I discovered when my mom died, which is kind of the end of the book. Because when she died, I didn't try to pretend I was okay, or anything like that. And what I think is true is, you know, and I don't want to sound like Well, here's an easy answer. I mean, I do think that the easiest answer in general, the big takeaway from my book is, what if I looked at what's working instead of what isn't? What if I looked for things about myself that are right instead of things about myself that are wrong, you know, just flipping the script in that way, so good. But when it comes to, you know, grief, and allowing, I didn't try to, I didn't try to stop myself from feeling bad. I kind of I just let it be there. And sadly, that meant getting rid of some more people in my life because there's a lot of shedding of people and these people, this is not in the book. I mean, some of this partly because it goes past the time of the book. You know, it's so important to surround yourself with people who are supportive and there are a lot of people who can't handle it. If you're not happy if you're not a sir certain way, and frankly, those are people that you need. You don't need to slash and burn, I may have done some slashing and burning. In one particular case, just because this had been an ongoing thing, this was I think it was a relic relationship from this era of just basically developing relationships with people who I felt were were better than I was in some way. So like, as if by osmosis, I could, like, I could suck their good traits and have them for me. But really, all that it did was constantly make me feel a little bit bad about myself. And I'm not saying I don't admire my friends, of course I do. But there's a difference. And it's hard to explain, because I think these people also thought that they were better than me. And this is kind of my woowoo side, like, you know, there's an energetic exchange that happens between people. And you can feel when that energetic exchange is, is not a boiling up, but it's kind of like a crashing down. You know, it's such a good point, I always say, if I go out to dinner, or lunch, or see someone, and come home and feel lifted up, that's my sign, you know, they lifted me up to really, nobody is going to surround you with the people who lift you up, you have to, you have to figure that out. Right. And also be careful, I think of my, my, my, my inner Buddha at this point, as is as this delicate little sprite that needs a lot of swaddling, and gauze. And, you know, I just I really am not interested in putting myself in situations that I feel like someone's throwing salt all over the little baby. I think it's good to be protective in that way to identify what's what you need to protect yourself from. And another thing hit me what you said, Some people didn't want you to be sad. And I always say, there's always going to be those people who can't handle it. They don't want to go there with you. And so they say those trade things that drive you insane, you know, like, you know, she's in a better place, you know, those little like, and they don't mean anything by it. They're not trying to be mean, they just can't go there with you. And once you realize they can't go there with you. It could be worse is another one that I love. Yeah, it's like, thanks. You know, I have a pet peeve about the phrase, it is what it is, because I'm like, What did you just say? That says nothing. That's like, yeah, it's just a new way of saying, towards me nuts. Right after my mom died, my friend from college said, you know, your life is always going to be separated by life before your mom died in life after your mom died. And just lending that seriousness to it and telling me I get it. She helped me so much, because that's exactly how it has been any important point in your life. That's sort of how you think about it. It's like, oh, that was before I had kids or that was before my mom died, like you just identify periods of your life in that way. And she in that small sentence was so supportive, because she said, This is life changing. And you're not going to get over this, like in a minute, you know, was my, my husband's friend said, like, they went to the beach. And I said, I'm not up to it, you know, and, and she, she said, Well, it's been six weeks. And I said, Sorry, I'm not on your timetable. Good for you for for recognizing that in the moment and not turning it into a moment of a little, I'm going to just beat myself up with that. Thank you for that weapon. It was a little bit that way. Like, I just wasn't in a good spot. But you said, a wonderful thing about feeling it. Like that's what I learned from the therapist, she said, You've got to feel this. And I definitely, you know, learn through her that, like you said, it's connected to other things, and you're stuffing down those things. And she said, I was pretty old by then. And she said, You can't keep stuffing down. Like it doesn't go away. You're counting it. And, and she said you've got the only way to get through the feeling is to feel it. And it sounds so obvious, but I didn't want to and the reason I didn't want to was I felt I felt like I would never stop crying. If I started off. He's gonna sink in there and you're never gonna get out. And I told my husband, I didn't know you could be this sad and still live. You know, like, I had never experienced that level of sadness. And I was walking around and breathing and I was like, this is like amazing that you can feel this awful and still survive. So there's all kinds of things that you face when you go through that and I I really try to be there for people that are grieving now. That's like my big thing. Because I get it and I'm not afraid to go there with them. Yeah, I am. I'm good at being a witness. I'm not great at giving advice. No witnesses. Great just to be there. I also Talk about that on one of my solo podcast episodes. I say, what can you do for someone who's grieving? And I said, Just be there, sit with them. You know if your close friends touch their hand or have them ask if there's anything you can do. One of the things my friend did was show up at my door with sandwiches for lunch. She didn't call she didn't ask, she just showed up. That was so wonderful to me, because we're going to guess you know, my father was up from Georgia. My stepmother was there and my children were little, we were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Nobody thought of lunch. And now she shows up with the whole platter of sandwiches. Like, that is so like, I think of it to this day, like that was so wonderful. But also just it's funny. There's an author named Dina Gassman I don't know if you've heard of her book. It's called so sorry for your loss. And there's a piece she wrote in Time magazine that is a scene it's it's very similar to exactly what you're describing. If you just do a search Dena Gasman Tango comm you can find it. And so yeah, I don't know why I felt the need to tell you about that. But I think get enjoy that book. I'm so glad you did. And obviously, this is really important to me. But tell me more about your journey. Like why India I'm fascinated with that was what you thought you needed to do was go to India? Well, honestly, it wasn't, it wasn't some rational thought out plan. It was more like I knew I wanted a timeout. I was waiting for work to say, Okay, we found your replacement. Let's train him up. And you can go because I had told them immediately I want to leave. When when I went home shortly after our marriage ended, we had this sort of planned trip where we were going to meet up my my, you know, soon to be ex husband and I didn't know he was my soon to be ex husband. We planned a trip, right. So I had planned this trip, a work trip to the States. He had gone to look for work. I went and I still had I had the obligations of the trip that I had concocted for work. So I had meetings and I had a conference to go to and all of these things that I had to do, like 10 days out just miserable. And I saw my boss and I was like, I gotta quit just like well, I don't blame you. Qatar is awful. I wouldn't want to be there either. Because I was living off at the time. Yeah, subject of my first book, where because it was living in the Persian Gulf, I really recognized how I had internalized a lot of misogyny. But anyway, that was fascinating. So actually, in a way helped. Yeah. I think that it did. I mean, you know, when I wrote American Lainey creature, I came back home. And I discovered that all of these people were talking about Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin. So that's how long ago it was. And they were talking about it like, gosh, can you see how terrible how terrible they treat women in Qatar? And I was like, Well, I'm glad that women's issues are getting a bit more attention these days. But look at how we're treating Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin. And can you really say that we're doing better here? I mean, we have basically two, two roles we can fulfill. Can I swear on this? Witch Hunt? You can. Yeah. So I just felt really compelled to, to write that book as well. And that took me a long time. And it was really while I was writing that book, that this book was the events in this book, blissful thinking were happening, you know, you can actually see it. There's some there's some passages in there where I talk about resisting being miserable. But at the time, I didn't see it that way. I thought, well, this is the smart thing to do kind of a thing. Yeah. And I still I still think that it's good to have a container for your grief. Like it's good. We are distractible like children. We we are all children with just you know, larger bodies. When my mind is is just on a loop of negativity around some topic, I'm really indulging again, it's that sort of second arrow like I can I can make that go on and not recognize that, it that's what I'm doing. So it's good to also give myself permission to do things that help me feel better that are again, it's that self soothing. It's not a matter of stifling so much as soothing. And that could mean taking a bath. It could mean taking a nap. It could mean having an ice cream call. Do you know? Like, that's so good. Yeah, there's lots of different ways to achieve that. That was not even where I started answering that question. You probably never mentioned your first book American lady creature because I think I'd like to read that one too, because she was living in such a different place and it gave you such a different perspective. Sometimes that's what's so wonderful about Leaving where you grew up, because you look back on your life and the culture, and you just have this experience of realizing things you couldn't have realized if you stayed there. So I would love to read that book too. But no, you're you're absolutely right. It's really you would ask me why India and I was saying, you know, it wasn't a plan I had, I wanted a timeout while I was living in Qatar, and because my boss hadn't found a replacement or done anything. Finally, out of frustration, I just signed up for this yo and paid for this yoga teacher training. Of course, I wasn't going to be a yoga teacher. I was 40 years old, for God's sakes, ancient. There's no way. I'm going to be teaching yoga, but I thought it actually sounded like it would be really relaxing, like a good way to just like, just relax. Yeah, he's not relaxing. I mean, I went on that course. And it was these 12 hour crazy days. Oh, my gosh, you know, I was old enough to have given birth to most of the other people on the course they were all in their 20s Oh, my God. And often I felt like I had like, just given birth to them that morning. Like I was just like, I'm dying. But what happened? And this is what a lot of people aren't smokers don't necessarily appreciate. Did you ever smoke one? Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, then you get this. I get to India, and miraculously, I quit smoking. I didn't try. I had a carton of downhills that I had purchased at the duty free, you know, good. Oh, that red box. Was that guy. Remember during English cigarettes? Oh, yeah. So good. You know, I just realized like, oh, my gosh, it's been like three days, and I haven't had one. I haven't even wanted to have one. Yes. Moving. I came across the carton, like I was moving a little guestroom. I was like, Well, I'm not throwing these like this is not quitting smoking. This is just some fluke. I don't know what's going on. But partly because I was so I don't know what but I just was convinced that India had the answers because I was like, Well, if I can quit smoking without trying, and without even having pain around it, because I had tried to quit for years, I mean, started smoking when I was 10. Same time, I started drinking, like I will demand and I had smoked. Even though I stopped drinking, like I like I meet a lot of people who they quit drinking and smoking at the same time. And I'm like, How did you do that? How did you do that? I've been to AAA meetings, because we had a roommate in college who quit drinking, God bless her during college. And we went to we don't know how you guys did it. On your son? I'll tell you why is it as the abuse people drinking around you are abusing it. And so it's much easier to look at that behavior and say, Oh, I don't know that. That's so cool. Instead of seeing it as normal, which is like what grownups do, right? Like, that mess with my head. Because my boyfriend died. I was around people who would like have a wine and a salad. And I was like, Oh, I'm really like these people. It's so easy to get caught up in that. And that's so close to my heart, too, because I don't, it just kind of evolved. I don't drink much at all. Now, I don't make a big deal about it. I don't talk about it. I just don't. So But anyway, I had the same experience with quitting smoking. I tried about six times. And that's why I understand relapses. And I understand addiction. Because each time I got better at quitting each time, I said, Oh, I'm going to do this differently. Each time until finally, it happened the way you described. I felt like I almost had a hormonal shift where I didn't want it anymore. It was bizarre. And I wish somebody would do some research about that, because we both had that experience. And I don't know if people understand it can it can happen that way. But we have this either or stinking thinking in our culture where you know, you try once to quit something, and you relapse. So you're a failure. Like that's absurd, right? That's crazy. I definitely agree with that. But I'll tell you, I still think it was India. That's so cool. I love that, well, you changed your environment drastically. I think that sends a message to your subconscious, like we're going to be different now. You know, we're going to, we're going to be totally different now. We're going to suit our spirit, we're going to be in a whole different place. And you know, India is no room for spiritual change and ashrams and stuff like that. Absolutely. And I was studying that through the yoga teacher training, like learning sort of the Hindu pantheon and the Sanskrit and the meaning behind these different poses and how it impacted your life. And one of the books that we've read for our course. And our course was quite unusual because it was two solid months living breathing doing this yoga. It's you know, it wasn't like this was like, I'm going to take an online course for a couple hours on the weekend kind of a thing. The Power of Now the Eckhart Tolle book was one of our was one of the books that we read. Yeah, and immersive though. 12 hours. Good, good. It was it was a lot. It was very challenging. wouldn't experience. There were so many books that we read that weren't strictly yoga books. It was just very interesting. I interviewed somebody that does yoga and does astrology but not our astrology like she was challenged. Yes, it gets challenging reading. I was fascinated by that. I was like, of course, we're stuck here in the West. I never even knew there was such a thing, you know, a different kind of astrology. And she was really they do. There's just so there's so much there that we don't have here, or that I don't see readily available here. Yeah, like living in New York City, you get this sort of everybody comes to New York City. So you get all of these, you have access to a lot of things that you wouldn't have in other places. Definitely. But this woman, she now has her own yoga studio, and she definitely is so into that. Astrology. Yes. And she healed through that. Like she also overcame addiction. And she's just got a great story. You know, I get so inspired by all of you. I get off the interview and go, Wow, I just had never heard of that. And I'm so ready. So powerful they are. So tell me more about that. i Well, I actually run a storytelling show. So funny enough, when I left India, I moved to New York City where I'd never lived before. But I always wanted to live. Because my idea at that point was well, I want to write this book about my experiences in Qatar, because it was so bizarre I want to live in, I either want to go to grad school, or, you know, live somewhere where I can avail myself of a lot of opportunities to do to study with different people, I ultimately decided that New York was the absolute least expensive place that I could live in order to you have the high tax of your apartment cost. But otherwise, there are authors there are free. There's music in the park, there's so much free stuff happening in New York City that brings like massive talent into this space, I wouldn't need a car. You know, there were lots of things about it that just really made it certainly cheaper than grad school. And so I ended up moving there, I got very quickly involved with the moth. The moth is a storytelling organization that I love. They have a podcast, so a lot of people have heard of it as well. I started getting up on stage and telling stories, not just at the mock, but all across lots of different storytelling shows. And I did that in part because I quickly realized, so I have a degree in journalism, a journalism background I had written for lots of publications, it's kind of a side job, you know, just because I enjoyed it so much. And pictured myself, I would work on various short stories and novel writing. Now, I never imagined I would be writing a memoir my own story, but because of the story that I wanted to tell about living in Qatar, my idea was I could write sort of really essays about how strange it was that women would be wrapped head to toe in black, you know, floating along to the scent of incense and Starbucks and mixing in the mall. Past Victoria's Secret ads on the wall like it was a there's a lot of cognitive dissonance going on there. But the big is part of the story was to me would have been disingenuous to skip was would have been my experience of getting a divorce in that culture. Like there was no other way to tell that story. And I And to some degree, I didn't want to fictionalize it either, because it was too weird. So the book, I decided, taking classes, and it was too slow. Frankly, I needed to really work hard learning how to sew I came from school journalism, we're putting AI in the story was absolutely forbidden. And and so I really had to learn how to tell how to write memoir. And doing it on stage was great, because you got the instant feedback, you could tell if people were connecting with your work or not, you could tell what was moving the story forward and what you needed to ditch and explain and move on to. So basically, I kind of learned the art of writing memoir from telling stories on stage. And now I'm on my own storytelling show here in Florida. You do. I love it because I love storytelling. And I do think again, I think we said this right at the top of the podcast, which is you're only as sick as your secrets. And when we tell true stories. What happens is we connect it actually flicks on it's why it's key to falling in love with someone because it flicks on the empathy muscle. It puts you in their position, it creates connections. It just does so many things. It's healing and the listener to a beautiful thing. And you know, it goes back 1000s of years. That's what I talked about in my intro to my podcasts. I mean, I've been obsessed with early people and how they told certain other stories about how when fire was discovered People didn't have to go to sleep right away, they could stand up, there was light. And they could talk to each other and tell stories. And one of the ways they did it was they looked up at the stars, and they made shapes and animals and, you know, stories about those. I was sort of fascinated with that idea. Because you never think about how far back this goes. Because I majored in English, and it was all about writing was all about, like, maybe the 1600s. But it was mostly about, you know, the 1700s and forward. But we are storytelling animals. And I remember the example that blew me away was people receive information better, they learn better when they hear it in the form of a story. And the example was, and they're talking about like, early man, instead of saying, Don't go, don't go around that tree. You say, Don't go around that tree, my cousin got attacked by a tiger. So it's just a short little story. But it's so different from saying, don't go around that tree. So I just get a big kick out of thinking how old it is, and how it's, it's just a natural way to connect. And we're supposed to feel connected. And I think that's so lost now. And I really hate this thing that's running through the media now, where they say, not even the media, but social media, I see a lot of comments. When they post something positive about something somebody did for someone else. They say, Oh, it's so good to see this. It's so unusual. And that's just a bunch of crap. You know, that's like that's sold to you because you want to feel fearful about the world. And people are mean, and you know, that's what sells, right? But the real truth is, every time something bad happens, every time there's a disaster, there's always people helping, and they don't even think about it. Because here's my theory, why would we survive as a species if we didn't, you know, if we weren't, if people were not cooperative, they wouldn't work great. And I think one of the reasons that we're cooperative, it goes to that empathy gene that we get from communicating. It makes us more naturally empathetic with one another. We're altruistic as naturally we have to be I mean, not all of us. There's, you know, the 1% who are psychopaths, but that's okay. 99% of us are going to help. And somebody was asking about New York because I love New York City, we live only like, you know, an hour, 45 minutes from Lower Manhattan. I've always loved it, the energy of it, the the availability of everything. And even like clothing or, you know, food, you can find really cheap places. So there's this idea that, you know, there's nothing cheap, but like those free things, they always have this, and I love the museums, but somebody was talking recently about how dangerous it is, or they won't help you. And I said, yeah, they will. Like work me the list of friendliest City's most helpful cities. Now. It's not like Southern cities. It's not like in your face friendly, right? But every time I've been in New York and really needed help, somebody helped me New Yorkers just bullshit you. Exactly. If they're mad, they're gonna yell at you write on the street, but I honestly I prefer that to welcome both honey. Bless your heart. I had my my wallet returned many times. Well, not many, like three times with everything intact. Yeah, I just feel like New Yorkers are very misunderstood. I agree. I just love the directness. I just love it. And I grew up with it. And I respect it. And my father had moved to Georgia, and my stepmother is very, you know, sort of classic southern belle, and she's an older lady. And there was a lot of that, you know, bless her heart. You know, she's such a slit, that kind of thing. You know, I would, you know, and I love her. I grew to really love her. But I prefer, you know, the tough kind of, if you really need me, I'm here New Yorker. So you became so enamored with stories that you, you know, run a storytelling event, please. Storytelling shows. Florida I had one last night. But we're taking a hiatus for August, because it's so bloody hot here. And the town really does clear out in the summer, which I kind of love. It's sort of like being in New York during certain holidays, when nobody's in town. Everybody goes off to the Hamptons, or they don't come to the city. And so the, you know, it's easy to get an appointment or get a reservation at your favorite restaurant. That kind of a thing. So how do you who comes to these, like, how do you find people to tell stories? Well, I mean, people love telling stories. They love getting up and telling their own true stories. And I run it very similar to them off. So that, you know, as an audience member, you can relax and know that if the storyteller that you're hearing is not coherent, or whatever, it's only going to be five minutes long. Things gonna be over and we'll be on to the next storyteller. You know, when I first started, there was not a big community of storytellers here. But now increasingly, there certainly is. So it grew. Yeah. Yeah. I think what you're doing is really great because it does it. It reminds people that we are connected that we have so much more in common than we do more healing than the yoga classes that I taught for years. I've taught you years and you didn't take you ended up being a teacher. Yeah. And this is more healing. I love that. So is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners, find a storytelling show and start telling your stories? Very powerful way to feel better, for sure. And to help other people, right? Because we're not alone. I mean, I think that this other arising that happens, we've made some references to it through either, you know, toxic media presentations, or just the behavior of being online constantly. Yeah. It contributes to this feeling of of aloneness, even though we're supposedly more connected. Yeah, this is why I still I think books are so important. And I think I love podcasts for the same reason, you know, real storytelling shows. Because it's an opportunity to really put yourself in someone else's shoes and see the world through someone else's eyes and understand why people make decisions that might be different than your own. Because that's really what it's all about. It's not Well, everybody should see things how I do, because obviously, I'm right, and I'm gonna go tweet about it right now. Although now we x about it, I guess. I think that's so true. A lot of times, I think I grew as I read things on social media over like, a decade, and I stopped fighting. I'm not proud of it. But I would like fight in comments at times, because I would get so angry. I think I grew as a person, because now I don't engage. But if I do, if I feel bad for someone, and they're really angry, I usually start with, I hear you, I felt that way myself. But and then I very, you know, in a non judgmental, non emotional way, I lay out what might be true, because I feel like there always is that need for people, maybe they didn't go deep enough to understand why someone does something. And I do see some good things that people say, you know, you don't even know what's going on with someone. And I think that's really good to remind people of. And I do want to ask you one more thing, how did that the idea for peaceful thinking did start to germinate while you were writing your first book. But how did you come to that realization that maybe we were overdoing the happy, happy mindfulness kind of positivity? You know? Absolutely. Because it was not my first thought. So I, the book, the book was originally going to be a because when I came back from India and moved to New York, and I was working on this book, they say that when you, you know, finish your book, you need to start your next book, like that's a writer. And I had originally the vision this, this book was done in 2016, I had an agent shopping the book. But my mom, I mean, just to like, bring it into perspective, my mom had died just before then she died the same year that my first book came out, I ended up moving to Florida, which is a whole other. I never plan to move here. But then I ended up meeting this guy here that I ended up marrying. And then the book was going to be based on my experience at this 10 day silent meditation because I told a lot of stories about this. And I had gotten all this agent, I got a lot of interest in that idea. But then nobody actually bought the book, like it was getting a lot of interest, getting a lot of whatever. After a couple of years of shopping around, essentially, I was like, Okay, forget it. I'm going to just work on something else. And I started writing, like short plays and films and things based, like loosely based on the book, like stories out of the book, and ultimately wrote as a short film, won a lot of awards, wrote another short film also won a lot of awards. It's fantastic. Yeah. And I wrote a pilot based on the book, and then Then suddenly, the books sold. But the other thing that happened was, I thought, Oh, I see why this book didn't sell. This was back in 2016. I, you know, and I skipped this little part, because then I spent a couple of years actually changing the book because I recognized I came across this study from Brown University showing that meditation could actually have negative impacts on people like it wasn't bliss, and this was a revelation to me. I here's something interesting. When I tried to cover that story when it first came out. Nobody wanted to take it Like I had a very hard time selling that story. And the outlet that I sold it to actually, finally they they took it down first they changed it dramatically. I mean, they they had it run exactly as I wrote it, and then they changed it. And then they change it some more. And now it's just not even there, which is good to me. Because that's how insistent we are as a culture. Like if you are not well, you should meditate your way into happy. Okay. He could just be another excuse for stifling another way to stifle. I think that's such a great point that you that you wrote a book about, I think that's so needed. And yeah, there's resistance, I have that meditation guy, because there are different types of meditation. And I firmly believe that I would if I had stayed rigidly stuck in the idea that I need to sit in silence to meditate, or else I'm not really meditating. That that would not move me forward either. So I definitely had to do to experiment with a lot of different types of meditation anyway, so the book as I had originally conceived, it wasn't fully cooked, I started to rewrite it. And it just wasn't kind of going anywhere. And then I again, that's when I put it to the side and I worked on the screenwriting. After I wrote a pilot, suddenly I got a deal for this book. I mean, it's with a small press. So when I say a deal, they basically wanted to publish it. Small press deals don't generally come with money. And this is important. Right? Well, I mean, you know, the money, hopefully, some will come from selling the book, and, you know, also from the next book. So that's so cool. So it wanted to be something else, and you found what it wanted to be. Yeah, that's sort of how I do this podcast, I'm waiting for it to tell me what it wants to. I mean, it's stories, but it's sort of growing organically. And we I'm finding that there's themes, but I definitely just keep going. And I love that because I hear that from writers so much. That once you start, then your next book is in your head, like after you finished your first book, because you sort of lit up that part of your brain. And you're you're just always churning ideas. Well, I have one more question. Is there anything you can't do? So many things? There's so much I can't do. I mean, I just I'm very impressed with how you go. And the things that you ended up doing. How long were you in India? I didn't catch that. Well, at various times, so I was there for six months, the first time and then in the book six months again, the second time. That's a good chunk of time. Yes. So I feel like your time away really did help. Absolutely. I really did. I know a lot of people who manage to make those strides without going anywhere. I am a slow learner with a hard head. Sometimes it's hard to tell what we really need. Right? Yeah. I mean, a lot of writers will contrive experiences in order to write about them. That's the birth of Eat, Pray, Love. I mean, that was an idea to sell a book. She didn't have those experiences, and then write about them. She had the idea, pitched it to an agent and then went off on her trip using her advanced money. I didn't know whether that has functioned that way. Like I'm not, as I even said, I wasn't trying to write memoir. I'm not sitting around thinking, how can I? How can I make something happen? So I can write about it. I was very much entrenched in either reporting or fiction, but that's what I get from you. The overwhelming thing I get from you is authenticity. That's what you dish up. And that's irresistible. You know, and that rings true. You know? It's just lovely. You know, because I'm so touched by what you've written, and I'm really I want to dig in and read more. I can't remember 26 I'm really psyched. And I can't even count the number the workshop. I'm doing a workshop. Oh, good. Yeah, it sounds wonderful. It's free. For everyone who's funny. I've done it. I've only done one workshop and it was on regrets on sort of quieting regrets, and it went over pretty well. So I'm going to be doing that again and doing I'm gonna actually be guesting on somebody's podcast about it. And it's so intertwined with our discussion about grief. I find you know, I keep hitting the same themes. Interesting. You know, there's stuff going on is about regrets. Yeah. And I start by start the podcast episode with Edith Piaf notion overcoats Leanne, and I just really researched and thought a lot about it. And I said, you know, it's a nice thought it is, but we we can't get rid of our regrets. We all have regrets. And I say unless we're a psychopath no regrets. I normally was a psychopath. We don't know. Well, I don't mean to employ. Joking. But um, and it's very funny. Yeah, she I mean, it's a nice thought. I don't regret anything. It's Very, it's full of bravado. But in reality regrets are a natural way for you to assess whether you could have done better. And that's a great thing. But I found myself returning to them, you know, then you said something earlier that reminded me so much of the way the world works, I would just return to them and feel bad and not do anything about them. Yeah, you develop actual neural pathways in your brain. Yeah, make that possible. So you have to really retrain. I mean, I'm a big fan of EMDR. for that. I don't know. Yeah, it's not easy to get out of that. name is Mary Frances O'Connor, the one who wrote the pain on grief, she talks about those neural pathways, and she talks about the reality is your, you have memories that are so alive in your brain stored in your brain about this person, that when you first lose someone, you're living that weird life of ECT, they're still here, you feel them, you have this relationship sort of encoded in your brain, but they're not here. And so you're living that really weird. They're here, but they're not here. And everyone I've ever talked to said, they saw their loved one, you know, or they went to call them. And my favorite was, my friend Debbie said, I just think of my mother on a world cruise. You know, she's on the world cruise, and I haven't heard from her for a while. Interesting to me. I'd be like, Why isn't my mother telling me to me? She just was like, not, you know, she was still in denial a little bit? Ah, well, you know, but I also don't judge. Like, if that works for her. That's great. I know, that would not be work for me. I think she was describing what it felt like, Yeah, but I don't think that would work for me either. I wouldn't like it. But you know, even years after I lost my mom, I was walking down a road in Cape May. And I looked in this restaurant, I looked in the window. And I saw her doppelganger. And I made my husband go back, and I looked again, and I was like, Oh, my God. But I mean, that's just going to happen and you have to, you know, accept and move on by urges to call my mother. Well, I guess I still want to I was gonna say it was my it was my dad. It'll be two years, the end of this year, I still think about calling him and it's just normal. We have to under we have to teach people that these things are what happened and it doesn't make us not getting over it or on you don't muddy silence. Hence the stories. Uh huh. I wish I wouldn't have thought it's like to go to your story thing. You would have so much you would love it. I would love it. Yeah. The last Thursday of every month. So you know if you're ever in St. Pete at that time. I have been there. I love it there. We went to Lido Beach. It's so beautiful. i The sand was speech. So wait, I think it's just south of St. Petersburg. I love Florida. I really do. I love the warmth. And I love I love especially the Gulf side and dolphins and all that. So now I'm going to have to stop and I'm going to start recording because I'm indulging myself here. Well, this was one of those interviews where we stopped recording and we kept talking. Thank you so much. lol Kershner you got me thinking about so many things. And you really made me think about the importance of staying connected to other human beings. And I love your story. And I think my listeners will really love it too. So thank you so much. And remember to come back for the next episode of The Storied Human. We're on a summer schedule. So the next episode is in two weeks, and we'll see you then I have a fantastic story lined up of course, I talked to the most inspiring man who's had he had horrific childhood abuse in his life. He spent time in prison, and he turned it all around and I can't wait till you hear his story. His name is Sonny Von, Cleveland and I had such a great time talking to him. So see you then. And thank you again for listening to the Storied Human.