Talking with Sonny Von Cleveland -- Abuse Survivor & Ex-Con who transformed his own life

Sonny Von Cleveland speaks openly and honestly about the horrific sexual abuse he suffered as a very young child. He ended up going to prison at a young age and found himself as a teenager among hardened criminals. How he got through this and how he found his way to making peace with his past and learning how to forgive -- well it's one amazing story and Sonny credits one prisoner in particular who was near Sonny when they were both in "the hole" (solitary confinement), with teaching him how to change his life. This amazing Muslim man challenged Sonny to transform  his approach to life, and to try forgiveness and kindness. Through his inspiring words, he helped Sonny heal.-- to the point where he got his time in solitary shortened and was asked to present a course in the prison. In a cruel twist of fate, the course was to be presented to all pedophiles and Sonny had to wrestle with his own feelings and past. In the end he decided to do it, and taught the class. He reminds that each of the men in that class were once an innocent little boy before their innocence was broken, and they chose the path they did.
Inspiring and uplifting, Sonny's story reminds us that we can choose to look at our lives in a different at any time. Today we can make changes.
Sonny continues to make a difference with his work with juveniles, his new book "Hey White Boy," his coaching  (itopoacoaching), and his podcast "The Morning Choice." As he tells it, it is simple to live a good life: Be kind --both to others and to yourself.

Pre-order his book (due out in September), "Hey White Boy -- Conversations on Redemption" from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Hey-White-Boy-Conversations-Redemption-ebook/dp/B0CB9RB83V/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3W0MY6X5GYZ2R&keywords=hey+white+boy&qid=1691980012&s=books&sprefix=hey+white+boy+%2Cstripbooks%2C188&sr=1-1

Hey, White Boy: Conversations of Redemption is the story of Sonny’s transformation from victimhood to self-actualization and redemption through the mentorship and teachings of a fellow inmate – a Muslim man whom he met during the 19 months he spent in solitary conferment. Through this man’s teachings, Sonny put himself through intense self-examination and scrutiny and used his mentors’ instructions to confront his past, forgive those who wronged him, hold himself accountable, and rebuild himself into the motivational speaker he is today.

Hey, White Boy is a profoundly authentic and moving memoir about what it means to let go, transform, and rise from the experiences of our past.

His contact info :
Sonny Von Cleveland
Director & Mindset Coach

YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaL7Noxq4twziF_yHHCgBqA

His podcast "The Morning Choice," on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZDj-s2fS69UvrHe6JJjdQsq9IEIhnPwl

iTopia Coaching
m: (1) 216.644.8198
e: sonny@itopiacoaching.com
www.itopiacoaching.com

The book "Love is Letting Go of Fear, by Gerald Jampo

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Original music "Saturday Sway" by Brendan Talian

Transcript

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Hello, you've reached the storied human podcast hosted by me Lynne Thompson. Each week I share a story, either an interview with someone fascinating, or a short solo from me. I love your stories, and I learned so much from them. Hopefully you will, too. So welcome. If you are new here, I'm so happy to have you. If you are a returning listener, many things. So here it is the next episode of the story, human. Hi, and welcome to the Storied Human. I'm Lynne Thompson. And this week, I have an incredible guest. I found him sort of by accident, I was so lucky. We're on the same Facebook podcast group. And his story just got to me. His name is Sonny Von Cleveland. And he he's just his story's amazing. He speaks to the power of the human spirit for me. I mean, I just got that. So clearly, he overcame so much to get where he is now. He's a childhood sexual abuse survivor, who spent 18 years in prison and became a speaker, author, mentor, and mindset coach. So welcome, Sonny. Thank you so much for having me. So good to have you. So where do we start? I've heard you tell your story a couple of times. I guess just bring us a little bit up to speed like a little bit about your background. I mean, it's it's so vast that I know. It's hard to find myself, I find myself often at a loss when it comes to podcasts. Because I mean, there's so many different avenues and I could chew up for hours of your time. But basically, I grew up in Carson City, Michigan, Crystal Michigan, it's just these little Podunk towns in the middle of nowhere. And it was I had a pretty rough childhood. Around age five, I started being molested by my uncle. And then over the course of the next five years, three other men decided to join the party. And I was just kind of a pass around toy for men. And it was, as I look back at it, it's pretty tragic. And, you know, a question I'm often asked is, How do you still talk to your parents. And I just met my father, I mean, not met, but I just got in contact with them after, you know, 30 years, or whatever it was, but my wife actually found him on Facebook and was like, I think this is your dad. And so I just reached out and I'm like, what up pop. And that was first time we talked since I was 15. We just picked up like, like nothing had ever happened in got to talk and like old jumps. And then in the as far as my mother goes, I still I communicate with my mother. You know, I tell her that I love her. But I as I look back at it, first of all, I hold no resentment I am I am a habitual Forgiver. But there's no point in holding resentment toward anybody because that does nothing except make my soul suffer. So there's no point in holding a grudge for anything. I'm in I keep my mother and my life because I also see life through the lens of kindness. I kindness is my first approach for everything. And she, while I if the roles were reversed, if one of my children were to be molested, I promise you, they would never happen twice. I would lock them in a basement if I had to chain them up to the wall if necessary. But the oversight for me would be hyper, I would be hyper vigilant and afraid to look like I think some people are just afraid to look. And so I can't explain how my mother didn't know or overseeing that I was being molested by all these men. But I don't hold a grudge for it. There's no point don't even hold a grudge against the dudes that did it because you created who I am. And so I'm thankful. I'm actually thankful that you did that because I feel my purpose on this earth was to endure these things so that I could help other people get past them. You know, everybody has a calling in a purpose. And I honestly feel this was my purpose in life. So I endured that at the age of seven, I was convicted of a felony. I broke into a church and some putting cups and playing cards out of a basement of a St. Mary's Cathedral. And I was charged and convicted of a felony for breaking and entering in 1988. And I didn't know they could do that. I didn't know they could either. In fact, I'm trying to research it but I think I might be the youngest convicted felon in Michigan. But you they give you I know, I did read that they gave you parole like several I mean, I was able to give me 60 days probation, it had the reverse effect from what anybody would have anticipated. What happened was, when it happened, all the men that were molesting me left the open way, right? Because I assumed because they didn't want the attention of the police. And so, in my young mind, here are men that don't want to hurt me. They want what's best for me, you know, they're telling me be a good kid. Don't do this be a good kid, and they don't want to touch me. They just want to help me. Yes. And so I fell in love with the attention from the police. And I'm like, Okay, if I get into trouble, they'll come around, and these men will leave. So I caught the worst ass whipping of my young seven year life, from my mother when I got to got the felony. And she was out of fear. I didn't know what else to do. Now, all these men obviously threatened my life, they, you know, they will kill me, they'll kill my mom, they'll hurt my family. And my uncle, especially, because I remember I vividly recall telling my uncle, I don't like this, I don't want to play this game anymore. And he said, This is what special people do. You know, I love you. And this is how special people treat each other. Besides, if you say anything, I'll have to hurt you. I'll have to hurt your mom will have to hurt our whole family. And when out of fear of getting whooped even more, because I caught a felony. I told my mother what was happening, and she broke down crying. She called the police. It ultimately led to my uncle being put in prison for 15 years. Oh my God, thank God. And his threat came to fruition. It hurt my mother, it hurt my family. It hurt everybody in my family, my family broke apart. Half of our family blamed me said I was lying. And so there were no more family holidays, there were no more get togethers at grandma's grandpa's house with aunts and uncles and cousins. And I took that on myself. I said, this threat came right. This this that was was true. And so then the next three men that were touching me, I didn't say anything I didn't. I mean, here's in my seven year experience. This is what happens when you tell him, my uncle goes to prison. My the rest of my family hates me. I don't get to go to grandma's house no more. And when we do go to grandma's house, it's just me and my brother and my mother, no other families there. It just I was overwhelmed with shame. Yes, seven year old can't handle any of that. Right. Right, right. And so I just kept it to myself and kept breaking the law, because that was my only source of protection. And by the time I was 15 years old, I mean, I had 10 or 11 felonies on my record. And the judge was sick of it and bound over to adult court. I had stolen some money from high school safe. And he the new judge in the adult court sent me right to jail, six months jail, you're going to jail. And while I was there, I was charged. It was crazy when I look back at it. But the first thing I did when I got into the drunk tank was chip My name into the wall. And He charged me with a felony for that, nonetheless, was destruction of state property over $100 for the labor in the paint that it would cost to repaint the whole cell. And then I had stolen a pedal bike I had broken into a house and have stolen cell phone and all the all three of those charges with the new destruction charge came up. And to my utter shock and amazement, the judge sent me to prison at 16 years old and gave me two to five years. And I remember standing there like are you kidding me? Like I've never even been to juvie. I've never been locked up in my life. All I ever got was probation. You're sending me to prison. And now in my young mind. All I remember is Shawshank Redemption, bad boys, you know, the Hollywood prison movies. And I'm like, I am in some serious trouble. Oh, it's horrifying right to think about. Yeah. And so that was solidified. When I went to prison, I was raped by two men first week that I was there. I was a young, long haired skinny white kid at 16. And I stabbed I snapped something snapped in me and I grabbed some pencils and I ran across the hall and I stabbed one of them. And that started a very bad trajectory in my life because everybody saw that. But they didn't know why they didn't they didn't know that these guys had just ran into the cell and raped me during Chow and I obviously wasn't going to tell anybody but so they thought that I was this psychotic crazy white dude that will stay. And so the the gangs came in immediately started to recruit me. We hit the level four yard I had made the decision in my life at that point that I was no longer going to be a victim. And so I I fell in love with it. tension from the gang immediately. It was like brotherhood family protection, all the things that I was craving, amen. I covered myself in tattoos as quickly as I couldn't even care what I got just give me tattoos. And I became a habitual stabber. Like, I stabbed everybody. And he looked at me wrong if, if you weren't part of my game, you were you were free to fair game. And yeah, it sounds like you had a reputation to uphold, I developed that revenue, because that was protecting me. In a sense, yeah, it's my mind, I developed such a dangerous reputation that you don't matter, because if you do anything wrong, I will poke you, and you're gonna know it. And here we are. We're two years into this to this bit. And they opened the first ever privatized youth correctional facility in the United States. And it was called wagon Hunter, the company was called wagon hut. And it was in Baldwin, Michigan. And they sent me to this prison. And it was, it was staffed by a bunch of local people that were not trained. I mean, we had 1918 1920 year old kids that were fresh out of high school that wanted to be police officers, or whatever, but for whatever reason, got employed by this private facility. And at this time, we had already done two years in the penitentiary. We were seasoned criminals. Oh, my God, the place was an absolute bloodbath. A week into it. They didn't know what to do. We're like, Yo, what's up with our yard? Man, you got to let us out for yard so not knowing what to do. They just opened all the doors in all the units and let the entire prison out under the yard at the same time, and what do you think is gonna happen? Immediately was a gang territorial fight immediately. People are staking claims. We're staking claims in the laundry to the commissary the barber shops, the kitchens were you know, all the gangs are now fighting for privilege in this facility. And it was a freaking warzone. It was a bloodbath. And didn't Denise they shipped all the 1213 1415 year olds from juvenile and put them in with us. What do you think that's gonna do? We immediately were preying on these kids. In it this place was just a war zone. Within three months, this place is out of control. It's the most violent penitentiary in the state of Michigan. More most assaults on staff most assaults on other inmates more ravings, more new stabbings. It was just it was horrendous. So they locked the facility down and brought in the big boys from like Virginia in the Department of Corrections locked the facility down and then they started to exact their revenge on us. They took us to the hole I remember being shackled to the shower and beaten by several CEOs they would drag us out of the cells during a cell rush because we I mean we weren't innocent we were bad people we were we wouldn't put cover up our doors tell them we're going to kill ourselves so they have no choice but to do a cell extracts and they have to pull you out of the cell and we would get butt naked in put water and shampoo all over the floors and cover ourselves and shampoo and baby oil and it's a fight right I'm you are not just going to come in here and take it take me right in my Our goal was to get out of the cell. If you get out of the cell you have nine grown adults with a riot shield and riot gear and I'm a butt naked 18 year old. If I get out of this cell I win. So that was the goal. And they would open the slot and just tear gas the crap out of you and you would go out and they would they would chain us in behind our backs, carry us outside into the dog kennels and throw us out into a snowbank and leave us out there for six, seven hours. They would they would come out dump a bucket of water on us and kick us just to make sure we're alive. I lost this tooth over here because he came up just kicked me in the side of the face to make sure I was alive. There's no oversight. So Young, it was so bad. There's actually been $80 million in payouts from lawsuits. And I didn't even know this until I ordered to research it. And she's like, Oh my God. There's been documentaries on this place. It's really that bad. I heard it might be part of that. Because it's private. There's incentive to send people to juvie. And so there was like a little business that judges. That's the state of the Department of Corrections period in the United States is modern day slavery in a DC cattle farm. That's all it is. I think prisons are the dumbest idea ever, because it's even worse. Right? And if you look at it, even from a business perspective, the recidivism rate is 77%. In this century, What business do you know can fail 77% of the time and is still a business. Like are you kidding? It's insane, right? Things I talked to a woman in California. And she's a lawyer who found her her life's work, which is to help people when they get out, because there's nothing for you when you get out. You're just kind of dumped out there with a little bit of money. And she doing really good work. And I became really aware of how ridiculous it is, right? The whole thing that's, that's I was a victim of that. So I'm, I'm on both sides of the spectrum. So after the two year of torture in Baldwin, I spent another year in the back in the Michigan Department of Corrections where I was trained to be even more of a gangster. And when I was 21, they opened the doors, no parole, no probation. You're done. Here$75.03 Condoms. Good luck, see, and I robbed somebody the first day I was out at the gas station at knifepoint. And I didn't learn to rob drug dealers, because it was a very lucrative enterprise. And in my mind, you What are you gonna do, you're gonna call the cops tell them I stole your drugs. Turns out, that's illegal. But I got two women pregnant, I was out for 20 months, I ran the streets with no conscience with no soul with no caring, I was a greedy, self centered, borderline narcissist human being. Because that's how I had been raised, I'd put on masks for so long that I forgot how to take them off. I didn't know how to be anything other than what I was. And so in 2004, I was sent back to prison for 12 years. And in 2008, I discovered that my brother, who I had worshipped most of my life was having an affair with the mother of the oldest child that I had. And her and I were together. And she was bringing up my son to see me every week and like, we were like building a family here. And I decided that I was going to try to be a better human being, I'm still going to be a gangster, but I'm going to be an honorable gangster, and missiles, my twisted thoughts. And then in 2008, I didn't talk to her for a couple months, which was very, not like her. And so when I did get a hold of her, I'm pregnant, and it's your brother's kid, and he is going to raise our son as his own. And he doesn't think that you should be calling anymore. Oh, my God. And, I mean, I it broke the last semblance of hope that I had had for any type of normal life, like I at that point, determined that I was not worthy of love. I was not worthy of a family, I was not worthy of nice. My purpose on this planet was to be karma as Enforcer. I was simply sent here to enact karma on people. And that's how I justified my behavior. I was a torture of pedophiles and a horrible level that I won't even get into. But people understand that I mean, that's something people do, but they'd still take it's not the best stick type of human being to do some of the things. That's still the activity that you're part of. Right. Yeah. You're you're further betrayed you at such a deep level, and then you're stuck in prison. I can't imagine. Yeah, well, unfortunately for this young gangbanger from Flint, he decided to come in and make a name for himself and ran into myself and stole all my stuff. And so I took all of my anger and aggression out on him. Which landed me in extensively long stint in the hole. And so as I go into the hole, I'm wiping blood and pepper spray from my face in the sink, and I hear this guy, a white boy. Come talk to me. That's the name of your book. I got to cuss in this man out. I'm like, Shut up, man. Don't send email to Effie talking to bro. Do you know who I am? Bro? I will kill you, man. Stop talking to me, bro. Alright, man, bro. You go. Come talk to me. So boy, we don't get lonely. Oh, well, let me just clarify for people that I'm sorry for people that might not know the whole of solitary confinement. Right? Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So we kept calling over anyway, boy, come talk to me. casumo Classima. And so a week later, I was taken down to see the security classification committee. And they gave me 60 months in the hole in solitary confinement. So five years for what I had done to this guy. It was not pretty. And so now I'm like, Well, hey, all right. I only got eight years left to go. So five, it's going to be sitting in this cell. Awesome. And then I got back and he called over again, a white boy, what it gave you man what happened? What happened? And I got in the door and I'm like, Dude, what man? What do you want to talk to me about? He said, Just Just tell me this. Why are you so angry? What kind of question is that? Because I'm in prison. My life sucks. You won't shut up. There's a lot of Reasons why time do you have? Yes? Have you said no, no. That's why you mad. Mad is on the surface. Yeah, anger, anger runs so much deeper, you are an angry young man. And I was I was at a loss for words, I had no idea how to respond to that. And over the course of the next 19 months, this Muslim man changed my life. To be amazing. He taught me self forgiveness and self awareness and how to process emotion, and how to look at life through a lens of love and kindness and what that can do for you. Right? And I get emotional talking about this. You do? Of course you do. It, it was, it was life changing. And I was able to knock that 60 months down to 19. Because it's amazing I started to do I started to write essays. I mean, my my cell was plastered with post it in a way but little strips of paper that looked like post it notes that I would get to paste and stick notes to the wall. The engineering Evers the first book that he sent me over was Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. Yeah, it's a great. It's the most influential book I've ever read. Here's a guy who is a Jewish man who has had his entire life stolen from him, his family, his his business, everything he owned, was taken from it, and he's thrown into Auschwitz. And he's watching his people be tortured and abused and murdered in beat on horrendous levels. And he's smiling. And he's teaching everybody around him to smile. And we can't control our environment, but we can control our minds. And we don't have to be sad, we don't have we can smile, because it's going to get better. You know, we can we can be happy and look for the future and remain positive. And it was such a profound thing for me to see. Because I thought my life was filled with torture in horrendous acts. But it's nothing compared to this man. Right? I look at it like, well, I don't have any room to complain. Right? At least I wasn't going through that. And so I started to delve into every self help book I could get my hands on, I would write essays, I studied the dictionary, I started to work with the libraries. And it just started to come as a realization and through the methods, you'll have to read the book to get the in depth stuff. I mean, I'm already going kind of in depth and I'd want to give the whole book away. It kind of defeats pre ordered it. I really want to read it, I pre ordered it. Yeah, yeah. But I went through so much self analysis, and learned how to process emotion and it all boils down to one simple thing. And that's be kind, right. Be kind to yourself, be kind to others. And when you when you live life, through your your primary objective is kindness. Everything falls away. If forgiveness is an easy thing, it's easy people. You know, why do I forgive my Uncle Mike, why do I forgive them in that molested me? Because at some point in their life, they were little boys. They were innocent little boys, who I come to find out years later, my uncle Mike was molested by his father his whole life. Right? I'm not justifying or excusing the perpetuation of the behavior. I don't I don't it's not a chain reaction. It doesn't have to go that way. But I understand I can I can empathize with with this guy didn't know any better. He was 19 or 20. When he was molesting me, this kid grew up with this. This is what he knew. And so it's easy to forgive him because I have done horrendous things to people in my life. I have broken into homes, I have stolen priceless family heirlooms that can never be replaced. I may have destroyed families or kids may not trust their parents ability to protect them or keep them safe. Because some stranger broke into their house. A wife may have left her husband because he has the inability to protect his family. A father may have killed himself, or may have lost everything he owns because he no longer has confidence in his ability to protect his family because of what I've done. And that that destroyed me. When I got to thinking about that. I mean, I went through depression, anxiety, stress and all of it. It came back down to I don't have room to be feeling sad or depressed or about myself. I did it. I'm the one that committed the act. And so I don't have any way I can make amends for that. I can't go back and apologize. I don't even know who they are. So I can't go back and apologize to him. I can't make it right. And all I wanted was forgiveness. And so if I want someone to forgive me for what I've done, I have to be able to forgive someone for what they've done. That's so powerful. And so I do I forgive everybody that's ever done me wrong. And I forgive myself for the self sabotaging habits that I had. Because self forgiveness is huge as well, because we can't feel worthy of being loved, we can't feel worthy of, of having a successful life or a big happy life, if we don't feel worthy of receiving it. And so we have to forgive ourselves and to forgive ourselves, we have to be kind to ourselves. Right. And so that's what this whole transformation was, for me. i It was a soul cleansing transformation over this 19 months. And it wasn't without its challenges, because when I was let out of the hole, the the administration came to me to teach a class. And then it was thinking for a change. And they said, we've seen the work that you've done, it's incredible. And we want to give you an opportunity. If you teach this class, we'll let you out of the hole early. So I studied the course material. I'm like, Absolutely, let's do this. And they tricked me. I thought they were going to put me in general population to go teach this class. Instead, they took me to protective custody. And this is the class you're going to teach. And there was 20 Men 17, of which were pedophiles. Oh my God. Is this a joke? I know it says a cosmic joke. You want me to teach this to these people? But come on. You have just literally ruined any reputation that I have spent years building in prison is now shattered because I'm in protective custody, which is a no, no, you don't go. And on top of it, you want me to teach men that raped children. And there was a moment and this is this is the most pivotal moment I think of my life, because I had a choice. And this is why I realized that I had a choice. I could turn around, tell them to shove it up their ass. Or I could look at the situation through a lens of kindness. Each one of these men at some point were a young baby boy, who had nothing but love and kindness in their hearts. And at some point that was shattered. Somebody violated that in your life. And you some in for one reason or another you justified your feeling of unworthiness. To touch children to commit, you have this propensity that attracts you to children. But you don't have to act on it. You chose to act on it. That's where choice came in. You don't have a choice with what you're attracted to. I'd be honest, if you told me tomorrow, it's illegal to be attracted to women. I'm gonna go to jail. That's gonna be hard for you. I'm not gonna be able to stop. Yeah. And so it's the same with pedophiles, pedophiles have an innate attraction to children. The choice comes in when you act upon it. Right? Yeah, I mean, I like to drink. But I choose not to get drunk because it's gonna screw my life up. So you don't have to, to act on these, these feelings that you have. And so I said, You know what, I'm going to do this. I've made a commitment to myself, I'm going to do it. For you, that was a really big moment. And I taught the class to great success. Every one of those men, they graduated the class. They all did better. And I like to hope I don't know, I don't keep up with them. But I would like to think that maybe if at least one of them stopped hurting kids, I hope but it was very profound for me. And so I spent the after I got I knew I had to get out of protective custody because I needed a parole and I knew when I got out the gang was going to come back because I was in a very prolific gang for a very long time. And I was known as a shooter for this gang. I was the guy that they came to to stab people when they wanted someone's death and so I knew what was going to happen but I also knew that I had to get out of protective custody said Ed parole coming up. So I you know, I need to get transferred. Vote they put me out in general population. And sure as hell as soon as I touch the yard and here comes the gang. What up bro? What up, bro? What up, bro? I'm like, guys. I love y'all, but I'm out. Right? I've I've taken an oath of non violence. I'm out. I'm retired. I don't want to do this anymore. Well, it doesn't work like that, bro. You know that? That didn't go over big. Right? Right. Well, you know what I did for you? Think of what I do to you. Right? Leave me alone, bro. I don't want and they didn't so I was stabbed several times. I was beaten oh my god locks in the chow hall. They Pumpkinhead me were four of them came up with locks and we're happy scars all over my fingers because I covered my head up and they were just locking me. I was jumped multiple, multiple times. And this This lasted for about a year. Every, every week, for about a year, I was somehow assaulted in some way, shape or form. And finally, you know, I would I was so adamant about sticking to my oath of non violence, but what am I going to do? Like, I can't continue to do this for the next four years. So I went to the head of the gang and told him like, Listen, man, if you guys touch me again, dude. It's not gonna be good. And so they did. They've had listening to my threads. And I committed the last act of assault that I've ever committed in my life. And it worked. They left me alone for the rest of my time. And I spent the rest of my time mentoring guys and doing groups and, and teaching. And then I dedicated my life to the service of others. And I got out and 2016 almost seven years ago, and I've been on that path ever since. All because of that guy. Well, because of that guy. What did he get out to do? Are you in touch? Oh, he's doing a natural life. He was in prison. He went to prison an ad for for a murder. And yeah, he's never getting out. So Sonic part is, it's amazing to me. They're not friends. Yeah, we're not friends. And he has a circle seven Moabite. Right. They got like white people. We get shocked me. The last thing I ever said to this guy, as I'm leaving the hole for the last time is a stop calling me white boy, I hate it when you call me white boy. Alright, why we're here. And the last thing I ever said to the guy. And yeah, and but he had told me before, don't you tell anybody about this man? Because the day will kill me if they know that I'm helping you. And I see it now. Right? Because as I gain in it, which is why I don't drop his name, right? Because as I gain in popularity with what I'm doing in the world, you know, the book and all this stuff. If somebody were to know who this was, they could go back and say, Look what you did for this white boy. Yes, yeah. Yeah, you did that for him. You went against our bylaws. And then I I couldn't sleep at night knowing that that happened to them. Yeah, and so and plus I have a very horrible again, it wasn't it. That's not the end, right? It's not like I got to walk out in my life was peaches and cream, right? Was that peaches rainbows just because I had myself together mentally. And I was on a mission. It was difficult. It is in I mean, I saw I got out I was married at the time to a lady that was just a really good friend of mine. And it didn't take long for us to realize that. We're not love. You want to go to work and come home, watch TV and eat dinner and go to sleep. I've been doing that. For years. I don't want to sit down watch TV. I need to go experience life. And so we were we were together maybe six months. And then I met a girl on a dating app, which these things were the biggest hurdle in my life to figure out. And then dating apps are just ridiculous. So I met this girl on plenty of fish. We met up and she loved Buffy. And, I mean, literally within three months, I was living in her house with her parents. She and I'm like you want me to move in with you. And it was a very nice area and a very nice town of Ohio. And next thing you know, she's pregnant. And I'm like, well, here's my opportunity to be a father. You know, I missed out on the first two kids, you know, they grew up with me in prison. Here's a check. I'm going to be happy about this and go for it. At the same time. I had started a band and the band was doing really well. I got signed to a label within 90 days and we are touring. We're doing shows. And then here comes a lot of attention. A lot of of women and drugs and rock and roll in like it's assault on the senses. I've just most of my life as a victim in a can. And now all of a sudden, I've got tons and tons of fans screaming my name and I'm like, Wow, this happened. And so I cheated on my girl on my ex. And that was the first real relationship I've ever been in. And when she discovered that I cheated on her the sheer look of pain in her face. It changed me again. You're never too old to learn lessons. This look of pain on her face. I will never cheat on somebody ever again. Right? I would never cause that kind of pain to somebody just hit you. Yeah. So we broke up. And it wasn't a good breakup. But then three months later we got back together, which my fault because I should have known that you can't get over that as much as I've said, you can't when somebody cheats on you, it's breaks a barrier of trust that you'll never be able to get over. So we get back together. And I landed a corporate gig, which is an incredible story, I determined that I needed to get out of music in because it was just a very slippery slope. And I need to get a real job. So I go down to a staffing company, and I walk in to get a job. And I'm very open with my story in life, because I try to inspire anybody that I come into contact with. And so I'm talking to Shelly, the the staffer, and she says, Wow, you have such an inspiring story, you should talk to the owner. So she sets it up, and I meet Mike DiNardo, the owner of the largest staffing company in Ohio, and in a half an hour interview, I walked out with a six figure career. You they, yeah, this man said, I'm going to pay you to talk to people that listen, man. Yeah. And so in the staffing industry, I was at Rockstar, right? You could put me in any scenario, and I will sell to anybody, I will get any client to sign on with this company. And I can put anybody to work because I don't just sit down and say what job you want. I can talk to you and I inspire you, I motivate you. Because I get to know you as a person. And this job you're gonna get, it's gonna change your life and blah, blah, blah. And so I did really well, in this in this game. And I mean, I was making great money. Life was good. I'm like, This is what life is all about. I'm a dad, I'm successful. Everything's going good. And then out of nowhere. COVID Are you kidding me? You weren't even like doing it for that long, right? I'm like, does this world hate me? Is that was that what's going on here? Am I not worthy of being happy in life, because here I have gone through the fires of hell. And I have now the best possible position I could ever hope to be in, which was a limiting belief. I come to learn now, that's a limiting belief, or interesting. Yeah. And I accepted that this would be the best that I could ever have. And so I was heartbroken when COVID hit and where else? Now you're laid off the staffing industry was hit the hardest. Yeah. And so I go home, and I'm like, well, now what do I do? And I'm laying there, and I'm watching YouTube. And I see a guy named no life, Shaq doing a YouTube reaction. And he's got like, 2 million subscribers. And I'm like, Well, if he can do that, I can do that. I know, music, this guy, you got nothing, I don't have to go down into my basement, got on my computer. And I recorded my first reaction video. And within 30 days, I had two or 3000 subscribers. So 60 days, I had 10,000. Within 90 days, I'm up in 20 30,000 subscribers, and I'm making way more money than I ever made it staffing. And I'm like, this is this is insane. And now I have a global platform where people are gonna listen. So immediately I jumped into motivation. Let's start a start, let's start a show. We're gonna get a podcast, we're gonna do a video, whatever you want to call it. Let's do this. I want to inspire you all, I want to tell you an inspiring story about my life and show you how you can be happy no matter what the world throws at you. You can choose to lay down in sulk in your defeat, or you can choose to get up, pivot and adapt and be happy and proceed forward. And so one of my co hosts on an old show that I had suggested Reiki and I have, I'm not into the spiritual, but I'm not. You want me to believe in a ghost? Show me a ghost. I will then believe in a ghost until you show me one. Same thing with aliens. I believe in an alien as soon as you show it to me. And so I signed up for this rig. He's like, I'm gonna put you in touch with my Reiki Master, I want you to go do one for the show. Go do it authentically go through it. And it will talk about it on the show. Fine, I mean, so I go to this Reiki session. And she this girl told me everything that was in my mind. I'm unhappy in my relationship. I know I'm happy. The only reason I'm staying with this girl that I got back together with is because I know that she's going to take my son if I break up with her. Unhappy I am not living an authentic life. I'm telling everybody how to live an authentic life and I'm not doing it. And I was mind blown. I'm like, How do you know that? She's like, it's Reiki. I'm like, I don't give it what you call it. Did you figure that out? Okay, that is amazing. But I've heard that there's good ones and there's, you know, not so good. Well, that was my only one. So I gotta get I have to give it a good a good feed. So I immediately went home and I left her. I immediately I went home. I mean, I didn't pay attention to to the fact that it was, you know, eight days before Christmas. I relieved all of this stress that I had been building up over the last couple of years. This girl took it off of my shoulders. And why am I going to go back into an environment that's just going to start putting it back on? I not happy. So let's sit down like adults. I don't want to be with you anymore. I don't want to be in this relationship. And she went nuclear. Oh, yep. Now, come to find out. She was a closet narcissist. She's racist. She is anti trans anti gay, far right. just insane. And I lost everything. I was standing homeless December 12 2020. In nothing but shorts. I went out to get in my car to leave because I'm like you are in sanity. And I am leaving before I go to jail. Because that's how it always ends up. So I go outside, get in the car. She gets in the car punches me grab my car keys goes back in lock the door. The three different attempts. I've had officers three different times from the police department coming down. She will not give me the keys back. I'm like, so what am I supposed to do? This is my house I pay for this is my car. And I'm standing here in shorts in a sweatshirt. And it's if you didn't notice it's December 12. In Ohio, freezing. I'm freezing. What am I supposed to do? Cannot there's nothing you can do. You can't go back in the house we can't let you in. Shouldn't have to let you in. So I'm just stuck. And so I had a buddy that called and said dude, I seen the post that she put out. I bought you a plane ticket to Florida, come down here and just get away for a minute. I was like, well, that's a blessing. So I stayed the night at a buddy's house morning, got up, flew down to Florida. And all my stuff is gone. This girl went out and trashed my car in Canada now it said it was abandoned, destroyed all my clothes destroyed all my stuff. I'm literally homeless. And so I'm like, Whoa. So here's an opportunity. Because I always talk about never giving up no matter what happens. Don't give up. Be be kind. Have faith believe in yourself move forward always. And so now is a perfect opportunity for me to show you what I'm talking about. I went down to a dealership had my friend dropped me off at the dealership and I walked in and I walked out with a vehicle. Right and I'm I'm taking pictures and showing everybody this the whole time. This is how you do it. Let's make this habit. Got a car and started to grind right from there, grind my way back up. Within a couple of months, I got my own condo, I got a car. I'm working on trying to see my son she's being horrible. Now my house is getting broken into my car is getting trashed, things are happening because she's not happy. And I at that time, my booking agent. Well, prior to that I woke up at three o'clock in the morning with a phone call from my moderator that said your channels gone. And so I looked up like what's happening at this point, I got 50,000 subscribers. Well, my ex in some of her little hooligans hacked into my YouTube channel, because pewter was still at her house. Oh my god, they uploaded porn at three in the morning and YouTube deleted my YouTube channel. Oh my god, that was my it was still logged in on my laptop, all they had to do is bought the left. And so now my channel is gone. And my booking hits it comes in and says, but I just got you booked on this podcast from England. This girl from England has a podcast called boot camp for the mind and soul. And I think it'd be a really good fit on whatever, Fine, let's do this. So I had a new setup. And I get on with Claire Rogers. And it was another moment I fell in love with this woman in the in the duration of the podcast. And we are together today and we are out here and she was in England I was in Cleveland. It was the most authentic conversation I've ever had in my life was actually the first person I had ever told about being raped in prison to I had not really felt comfortable with that before. And I just I felt so at ease with her. And I just I dumped all of it on her. And for the first time in my life. I felt like somebody saw me right and accepted me for who I am eautiful him and she was going through a horrible divorce at the same time. And we were just there for each other. She was still in lockdown in London. They were really harsh on the lockdowns in London. And so every day for five or six hours a day, her and I were on FaceTime together it I had such a busy life. I don't know where I got that five or six hours. I just all day, hey, we're just all day. And then eventually she's like, I'm coming. Let's be together. I'm going to come to the United States and I said let's go. She said let's go to Palm Springs. I said I hate Florida. That's in California. Oh, okay. Well in that case, I'm down. Oh, And yeah, we I got on my bike and and nothing like one final shot from the world to try to test you right? I get on my motorcycle I have my cats I have all my stuff I give my condo to this young homeless kid I just give them the whole condo here. Here's a shot at life go for in a pack some bags on my motorcycle, and I leave, I'm going to drive my bike across country cleanse my soul and go meet my my starseed my soulmate in California, and I made it to Cincinnati and at midnight, I crashed my bike. No, I there's a sudden pivot off the highway. I didn't want to be on a highway knew I'm trying to come up and out 35 miles an hour right into a curb did some cartwheels, and I'm laying there on the ground like you got to be kidding me. What they're what else is life gonna throw at me? Like, can I catch a break? It's a horrible feeling. And then again, in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay, this is a test. It's just a test. Yeah, it's just a test. Because you cannot expect to receive the life that you want. If you are not worthy of receiving it if you're not ready to receive it. This is why lottery winners win millions of dollars in poker dead because you're not ready to receive that kind of decent. There's a talk about the frequency level, right? They're not at that level. They're not ready to. That's such a good point. Yeah. And so I took it as the universe is saying, you still have two cats and all your car in your car and all your stuff back there. You're not leaving, commit to it. So, okay, call my buddy. If you want his motorcycle, you can have it just a dented rim wasn't even that bad. In fact, he's been riding it now for two years, and I've been here and I don't have a motorcycle. And I went back and I got my car and all my stuff. And I committed to the trip. And I went across the country and I literally every state that I hit, I felt my chest getting lighter. Right? It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make because it meant walking away from my son, who was the most beautiful child I've ever seen. And I mean, I worship this kid. But I know that this is not going to end well. That I'm either gonna end up dead or in prison, right? Because this woman is insane. Have anything to do with it. And so I'm, as I'm, I'm each set each state I'm feeling lighter and lighter. Like I'm not running from anything. I'm going to something running to something running to my good and yeah, and and sure as shit as if it wasn't like, excuse my language. If it wasn't like a like a you assigned from the gods that was like you made the right decision. When I got here almost to the day, we were watching a news article and saw a father in Texas who was trying to just pick his son up at three o'clock like he was supposed to be picking him up at three. And mom was being a butthead about it in mom's boyfriend came out and shot him with a shotgun in front of the child. And this man. And I took that as a sign. Like, yes, it's the right decision. I made the right choice. Moment, Claire and I have spent every day of our lives trying to make the world a better place. Her and I are diametrical opposites. I am loud, heavy, big hard. Right. And she says gentle little blonde Soft Bunny. That you know she's she's an empath. She does not like loud stuff, she she can't watch action movies or horror movies. Because she is she takes that in right when she sees something bad. And it'll put her down for a day. But at our core, we have the same core principles, kindness, compassion and authenticity. And there has not been a day that we haven't been madly in love. And we have done our best to try to make the world a better place. And so now that I'm in that mental space, where I feel like my life is finally in a good balance, I'm able to focus on what I want to do with my life. And what that is, is educate and teach people how to overcome anything. And it all boils down to two simple things. I miss in choice. And if you put those two together, choose kindness every time and your life will be beautiful. Right. And so now I'm a reentry coach with the Anti Recidivism Coalition in Los Angeles. I mentor the juveniles at the Indio juvenile facility. I work with the Riverside County Probation Department to institute my core teaching program. I have my own mindset coaching company. And we have a 12 week eight module personal development program that we are getting instituted into the juvenile facilities. It's amazing and and It's incredible how and it's only been two years, right? It's retable how the world and the universe will respond to you, and manifest your desires. When you live authentically, when you believe in yourself, and you believe what you're doing. And you see the world through the lens of love and kindness, essentially get the blocks out of the way, and then it all comes in. It's so true. And you're, I'm so struck with what you do, because I know that those juveniles, juveniles, they believe you, you know, they don't just like, Oh, you're such a little, you're another adult telling me crap. One of the reasons they know you're the real thing, because you've been through some stuff, my teammates that I go in with, one is retired military or two are retired military. One's a correction officer and one's a former cop, and that they're not going to relate to you guys as much for me, you instantly go to God. Right? And I love Jesus, right? I think Jesus was an incredible man. I have Joshua 2415 tattooed on my face, I have the Southern Cross tattooed on my face, I love Jesus, I respect Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was a man that believed in his faith and gave his life up for it in took a lot of torture because of that. That being said, I'm not a Christian. I follow the openness of the Vikings, because I'm Danish. And so I follow my ancestral line, because it's I believe that people need spirituality, it doesn't matter what Yeah, we all are talking to in about the same entity. I think we just call them something different. I always think that too, and I try to be open until people you know, ask God or the universe, or source or whatever you call it. I gotta say something I was told years ago by a friend of mine who is very spiritually connected. She said, sometimes strangers can talk to you and tell you something that you really need to hear. And she believed that it was God talking through that person. And I feel like God was talking through your friend. I really do I feel. And sometimes it seems even more true, because it was so unlikely, you know that he would take that time that he would help you. He was used by God. And I had something happened to me recently. I always kind of believed this, but I and I won't go into detail. But I had something happened to me recently, where I was truly used by God to help a woman. And there were a million things that I was set up with. Like she only spoke French, a little bit of Spanish, I speak French. There was this huge Walmart, she came, she was at one of the exits. I came out that door there were like six doors that I could have come out of. I bought too many snacks. We were on vacation, why I kept saying to myself, Why am I buying all these snacks? I insisted to my husband and my son that I had to go right then didn't make any sense. They were going to this little water thing. And they're like, why are you going now as well, I just want to get it over with. I was used by God. I hurt her. I gave her so and also the weirdest part was she was she had a little very sad little scrawled note. And it was like I'm from Moldavia, you know, we're trying to get citizenship. We're, you know, we're living with our four children. Can you help us? And I was just not thinking and I said I don't have any money. I'm sorry. Because I don't. I don't carry money. Yeah. And as I walk away and have all this food, right? As I walk away, I hear my mother and she's been gone for 21 years. I hear her voice in my head. It's very clearly her. And she's like, okay, you don't have money, but you have food. And it was almost like and I just went, Oh my God. And I turned around, and I went back to her. And I said in French and My French is authentic. It's like so funny that it happened. But it was enough for her to understand. And you know, when you speak to someone in a language that they know, it's just this closeness, you know, this was comfort. And she felt so comforted. I hugged her in the end, I just felt like, oh my god, you know how in the world. I just feel like things like what happened to you? Sometimes they don't make any sense. And he didn't want you telling anyone. And he probably doesn't like white boys. But for some reason God used him for you. And look what you've done with that. It's funny because one of the practices that he taught me about forgiveness was because I went through after reading a particular book, I went I hated myself. Like, I am a world class piece of shit, for the things that I've done to these people. And I have no way to make it right. And he challenged me to write it down. Write apology letters to as many people as I could think of and then flush it. Give it to God God will take it in make sure that they know it. If you put sincerity into it, God will deliver it. Oh this man that's so beautiful. I was like, okay, right in it Did I mean it was a process? I, it took me a while, but I did it. And it was so therapeutic for me. Because I just leaved that that my, my, my heartfelt sense of remorse was delivered. Right? I feel that. And so it made sense for me, I don't care what you call him her, I don't care what you call the same way I have a higher power believe that connection, right? Whatever you want to call it, there's a connection. So the arc of your life is just amazing. And you know that. But I'm amazed that you were able to grow out of I was just so hurt as a mother thinking about you at that young age. People kept treating you like an object. And then you get to prison. And they do that too. And you were able somehow to turn that around. And I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. Because I know you're inspiring people I did listen to is it the daily something, the morning choice, the morning to is not daily, the morning choice. And I was just like this guy. What you're putting out in the world is so great. And I know that you're helping give it out to people. Yeah, the whole point for that was, it takes 66 days to make a habit. Yeah, so let's go I'm gonna go everyday with you in the month of July to give you the best underdog. I can't every morning, develop these habits every morning, have a routine. It takes just as much energy to type into your browser. Good positive news as it does to type in CNN or Fox News or any of these other mainstream news media switch. All they do is glorify sadness and tragedy. Look up something positive, and watch the effect that it has on you because your mind works just like your body works. If you eat crap food, you're going to have a crap body. If you ingest crap content, you're going to have a crap mindset. But if you make a habit of ingesting positive motivational stuff every morning, your whole day is going to be inspiring. Right? Well, while I'm hearing people out here talking about did you see the new bill that they banned on women in the new anti trans gay lawn? I'm like, No, I didn't see that. But did you? Here's what I saw. Did you know that there are now employing grandmas in Zimbabwe and putting them on park benches? To be therapist to people? Did you know there's a 12 year old who's come up with an amazing way to purify water for people in India? Right? I'm filled with positivity. So I'm always happy. Yeah. Why are you always happy? Because I ingest nothing but the happiness I get choose my surroundings? Yeah, I surround myself with successful happy positive people. I don't allow unhappy and unsuccessful people in my life. Right. And I'm not mean about it unkind. I just I have boundaries. And I just I adhere to my boundaries. And people sort of I've noticed they pull away a little anyway, when you start to really follow that, you know, they under they're not comfortable with it. And that's fine. I love them still, you know, I just don't do this because close really hateful way their excuse, you take away their excuse to continue living anything less than a happy life. It's true. Because a lot of people are comfortable living in their misery because they know what to expect. Right? It's scary stepping outside of your comfort zone because you don't know what to expect. But when you for instance, if you have a job for 20 years that you hate, you know what's coming, you know what's going to work and you accept it, you become content, bury this little bit of, of misery in your life, not realizing that that little bit of misery that you're accepting is the contributing catalyst that is the entire misery of your life. Right? Again, if you don't like your job, quit, if you don't like where you live, move, right? If you're not happy in your relationship, leave. That's a really good point. The biggest problem is fear. And it's fear of other people's judgement. That's the biggest stick time blockage to anything. I'm afraid my kids won't be happy if I moved them to a new state. Their kids, they'll get over it. Yeah, right. I made you know, my parents won't be happy if I quit my job. So what your parents don't live your life. They're not you your parents have their own life. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. Again, I drink Chuck Norris juice every morning, which is incredible thing I found. It's filled with ashwagandha root and all this really healthy stuff. It's fantastic. But if I tried to give you some of this, it's not gonna work because the cup is empty. Right? I have to fill this cup up in order to help give you some I cannot serve from an empty cup. People think that self care is selfishness and it's not have to put yourself first I have to make sure that I am at all To more levels, so that I can be the best for everybody around me, I cannot serve from an empty cup. So I have to take care of me so that I can take care of everybody else. Fantastic. I love it. One of my favorite books is this little tiny slim volume. It's from a while ago, and I was sad when I looked up the author because he, he died in the last couple of years. But I read this when I was really young. And I mean, I have this habit of just having books like fall off the shelf in the in the bookstore, or I can't tell you how I found it, you know, that kind of thing. And it's just this tiny little book, it's, it's got pictures in it, which makes it so easy to read. And it's called Love is letting go of fear. And the whole concept is Dr. Gerald Jump ball ski, the whole concept is, you can't feel both of those at the same time. You can't feel love and fear at the same time. And this just like blew my young mind. And it said, you can choose love when you have a situation where someone's cruel to you, you can see it for what it is. It's fear, it's something in them. And I've literally done this when I you know when I'm, I'm not perfect, but when I feel like I can. And it's just it transforms the whole interaction. You know, it's hurt people hurt people. Exactly. And it's so beautiful that it's really like when you love yourself, you take that time to fill your cup, then you can give love to others. And then you're on that low frequency, you know, and I remember my mother took a religion course. And she said Did you know they mentioned love in the book of John like 250 times, like that's what Jesus was about. You know, people don't talk about that now. Right? They talk about everything else. Like, I don't want to get into it. But anyway. Yeah, it's love. It's love. And that's it if cuz I believe firmly that, and I don't even I don't even want to say it's a belief or an opinion. If you look at any child under the age of two, they are pure love, pure, pure kindness. And you wonder why babies laugh all the time? Yeah, they're just filled with love and kindness. They don't know anything else until it's broken until it gets shattered. And that's all they are is kind. And if you can learn to look at life, through the lens of kindness, that's it, life is so joyful. It's so happy. There's so much beauty in the world. And yet we focus on the negative, because because we're we have a lack of fulfillment in ourselves, we there's something in our life that is lacking. And it's safer and easier to to accept it than it is to challenge it. So true. Yeah. And it and there's I read one of the most amazing statements that I've ever read in my life. If you do the things that are easy, your life will be hard. If you do the things that are hard, your life will be easy. It's so true. And it's so true. Because it's easy to be lazy. It's easy to not read, it's easy to not eat healthy. It's it's easy to, to argue it's easy to condemn people, it's easy to be mean, these things are easy. If you do those things, your health sucks. Your social life sucks. Your finances suck, everything sucks because you're doing all the easy stuff. But if you work out if you eat right, if you practice kindness, if you practice McMenemy, if you go out and do kind things for people, your life becomes so much easier to start it, but then your life gets so easy. It changes do the hard things now. In life, the life becomes easy. My life is so freakin happy and filled. It's not funny. Ever. I never thought that I would actually make it to this stage in my life. Right? There was a time in my life. I thought I was literally just here for some sick sadistic torture method of some crazy God somewhere. And I now know it was just a matter of perspective. It was just I was choosing that life, then you don't have to. You can start right now. And for anybody that's listening, start right now. You don't have there's no steps. There's no magical key. There are no four secret tones. There's no magical stairways. There's there's none of these none of these systems that is a debt that's designed to make the speaker money or the author money. That's they're trying to use logical numbers to trick your mind into thinking, well, if I take these seven steps, I will unlock the keys to happiness. It's one thing be kind period in every aspect of your life. Be kind, be kind to yourself, be kind to others. And kindness is love. Kindness is forgiveness. Kindness is charity. It's everything. Yeah. That's it just be kind. Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on. I just feel very uplifted by you and your story and I know that whoever listens to this will feel that too. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure talking to you. Same here. Absolutely. Oh, phenomenal. You know what I knew it would be, I could just tell by reading all this stuff about you and keep doing what you're doing. We're, we're all inspired by it. Absolutely. Thank you so much. You are amazing. Thank you, Sonny Von Cleveland so much. I enjoyed our talk. I enjoyed listening to it, as I edited, which this is the first interview I've ever done, where I did not have to change one thing. You're just such a wonderful speaker, and I enjoyed hearing your story so much. And I think it's really funny that I turned off the interview before, before I recorded me saying back to you that you're amazing. And I thank you so much for sharing with us. And I think I kind of knew your story. But the details really amazed me. And I'll tell you what I'm left with. I'm left with this feeling that you are living your purpose, and you're helping so many people. And I'm very impressed with how humble you are. Because when you presented the idea that you could be a guest. I mean, you're kind of a big deal for my little podcast, but you never gave off that air of being a big deal. And I know my listeners will love hearing the story. Not just love it, but we'll learn from it. feel inspired by it. I think a lot of people can feel inspired to make changes, like you said, you can start today. You can start right now. And I think I'm just so glad that our paths crossed and that you shared with us. And I wish you all the best and I'm so happy to present you guys with Sonny and I really appreciate the time he took. So have a great day guys. I'll see you for the next episode.