Season 2025: Episode 10: How Psychologist Michelle Sherman helps vets and others heal from mental illness

Michelle and DeAnne's collaboration as psychologist and teacher, daughter and mother, brings true synergy to their writing. They draw from their personal and professional life experiences which are the inspiration and foundation for their work. They are fervent in their mission of helping people know they are not alone, arming them with knowledge and resources, and supporting entire families in opening the door to conversations about mental illness and trauma.

Michelle's extensive background in teaching and providing mental health services over the years makes her uniquely qualified to share strategies that work for families. 

For more info about her, her mom and their latest book (I'm Not Alone:

A Teen’s Guide to Living with a Parent Who Has a Mental Illness or History of Trauma), see:

https://www.seedsofhopebooks.com/about

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Original music "Saturday Sway" by Brendan Talian (for all interviews before 2025)

Transcript

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Lynne, hello and welcome to the Storied Human. I'm Lynne Thompson. My guest today is Michelle Sherman. She's a clinical psychologist who has dedicated her 30 plus year career to supporting families dealing with a mental illness or history of trauma. She was named the American Psychological Associations, family psychologist of the year in 2022 she served as a therapist for over 30 years, providing individual and couples psychotherapy to adults in a VA Medical Center, urban primary care clinic, Community Clinic, inpatient psychiatric unit and private practice. As an educator, she served as a full professor at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center and the University of Minnesota Medical School, teaching and supervising trainees from numerous disciplines. She enjoys public speaking, having given over 250 workshops nationally and internationally, she conducts research and serves as the editor in chief of the journal couple and family psychology research and practice. She's published over 75 articles in peer reviewed journals, over 80 book chapters and articles and other sources and four books for the lay public. But we're going to get a little more personal today because she's published a book about her own experiences with with having a parent who had mental health struggles. And this is really interesting to my readers. We and my listeners, we really strive to learn more about it. And it's so cool that you wrote books with your mom, and I've read about them, they sound wonderful. I'll probably order them, because there's just something about this story. It's just very touching, and to me, it's personal, because my grandma suffered with those issues, and my mother grew up that way. So I am super excited to talk to you. Welcome. Michelle Sherman, oh Lynne, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here and just touched by the very kind and warm introduction. So thank you. Well, we're psyched. I'll tell you, it's a privilege to talk to you. I just I'm so impressed with the work that you do. So why don't you tell me? Will you start where you want to start, how you came to write the books, or how your career unfolded, or, yeah, I was a math major Lynne. I got to the point of, sure, I don't understand this making sense to me. I don't feel like I'm really using my gifts and it's not meaningful. So I switched way back in college to psychology, and I haven't looked back. I have really so good enjoyed this field, because kind of, as you said in my bio, I get to do a lot of different things, so that's really meaningful to get more to the focus of my focus on the families that actually began in the mid 1990s which is a long time ago, but I was working in a VA hospital with veterans. And honestly, Lynne, I was just struck by all the families sitting in the waiting rooms. You know, the veterans would go in for their 10 minutes, you know, medication, appointment, whatever. And these families would often sit there, and you could just see in their eyes the the the sadness, the confusion, the loneliness, the shame, the embarrassment. I'm like, you know, these people are all here together. Let's do something about it. And so I wrote my very first tiny grant for $3,000 in the mid 1990s and I got it and started then creating curriculum for families in which a veteran of that case had a mental or PTSD, and it's kind of gone from there, I was really humbled to be in the right place in the right time, and some of those curriculum actually rolled out in the VA system nationally as a best practice for family education. So it was kind of exciting. So that's where that all began, in the mid 1990s and then 20 years ago, I said to my mother, who also lives here in Minnesota. I was in Oklahoma at the time, but I said, Hey, Mom, do you want to write a book? And she said, anything with you, darling. And so we wrote our first three books together, and they came out in the mid 2000s one was for teens whose parent has mental illness, one for teens whose parent has experienced trauma, and one for teens whose parent had military deployment. Because, again, I worked in the VA we're really lucky and fortunate that the National Guard actually picked up the trauma book and purchased 75,000 copies of it and send boxes to every guard unit across the country. So it's wonderful. The gap in resources. Lynne, there just have not been resources for these teenagers who we know are at higher risk. If there's a family history of mental illness, there's a they're at higher risk. So that's been so. Exciting. And so then, right at the beginning of COVID, I said to my mom, hey, do you want to write another book? And she said, Yes. And so that's why we written these most recent two. One is for adults, what's called title of that one. And that one's called Loving someone with a mental illness or history of trauma skills, hope and strength for your journey. So it's not about, how do I understand? You know, what is schizophrenia or what is bipolar? I mean, you can Google that these days, right, right? It's rather, what have I learned from the families that I've served about what they need, about their emotions, about what research based skills they can learn and they can use and help them in communicating, setting limits, solving problems. I mean, it goes on and on, navigating the healthcare system, which can be so hard. So I really very, very interactive, and that it's not just boring text, it's stories, it's activity, it's reflection, questions. We were really humbled to have probably over 100 different people review it. We had a cultural sensitivity reviewer. We had psychologists, of course, clergy people who are living the experience. Nami. We had tons of people give us feedback to make it better. So that's the one for adults, that we're really lucky that Johns Hopkins as a publisher for that. So that was pretty exciting. And then we did a second edition of our book for teens. So that's the I'm not alone that you've been referring to. Yeah, that looks so good. I was reading about that on your website. It's, I'll tell you. What's struck me when you're talking about this is that way back in the 90s, you looked at those people with your empathetic self, and you said, somebody's got to help them. And I just love that, that you were able to think that way, because we need people. And you know, that's how it happens, right? Somebody looks a little differently and says, What about these people? And it's so important, and it's so beautiful. And your, your one book sounds like a guidebook, which is so cool. Yeah, it is. It's like, and there's the index of the thing, and say, Okay, if you want help with this, go to this chapter. If you want help with this, go to this chapter Exactly. So important, because you need to know what to do. You need to know what can I do, how can I react exactly? You don't need descriptions of, you know, this is what this illness is. You probably can look that up. Yeah, you can Google that stuff. But we really do intend to try to make it accessible so it's not like all in the doctor speak. That was part of the joy Lynne of writing with my mom again, who's a teacher, an advocate. She's a teacher. You, you're you make a great combo, right? Oh, we're so lucky. I think we've said 99% of the time, oh my gosh, it's great. We really collaborate and work so well together. That's a pretty high number, we think. But you know, I'll be honest with you, Lynne, writing is a lot of work. It takes all through COVID, every weekend, every day, uh, we've been working hard on it, and it's a lot of work and sometimes kind of isolating and overwhelming. So we lift each other up. We encourage each other. She helps me put the psychobabble stuff into a lay person's words. Um, I'll tell you a funny story. I think this is funny when we're writing our book for teens whose parent experience trauma. We were talking about the different symptom categories of PTSD, and one of them is increased arousal, which means, you know, startle response, hyper vigilance, things like this. My sister is reviewed all of our stuff. She's been amazing support. She read it and said, when you talk to teenagers about increased arousal, they're going to think of something different. So hence the power of all of our reviews. So we talk about, like, intense emotions or something. Yeah, right. So good, yeah. We put it in everyday language. And I'll tell you, Mom and I also took breaks. We played with my puppy. We'd go, you know, ordering special food or go on walks or things to nourish each other during this process. But I feel so lucky. There's noone else I'd want to write with. It sounds like the perfect collaboration. And it also sounds like if you wrote this, any of these books, by yourself, they would be really different books. Love huge Lynne, you got it. You nailed it. Yeah, you and they will be wonderful books. You're a very knowledgeable person, but your mother kind of added that accessible, you know, she made sure that that somebody you know, who's not a psychologist, could read it and get what they needed out of it, which is so important. So I love that you have that I was really close to my mom. I wished I had done something like that with my mom, but I know how hard it is to write. I mean, that's like, you know, you you gotta put your big girl pants on, you know, and for a long period of time. I mean, gosh, I have persistence. Yeah, people don't understand how hard that is. And I talk to a lot of people who write books, and it's painful. It's never. Ending. And a lot of people who write books have to shift like midstream, like, no, no, this is all wrong. My focus is, you know, they'll get a developmental editor, editor involved, and they'll say, no, no, I really have to write this, but it's all the journey. I mean, people don't understand that. That's just how you know, maybe you had to go through that one book, right, like that one draft, to get to a whole new draft. But I love that you guys persisted and that you supported each other, because I think in the end, you got a better book, you know, of really absolutely science of how to teach too, you know. And so I am not, I mean, I teach doctors and things like that, but I don't teach kind of the average a general reader, and so she's like, Okay, if we say it this way, or how about if we have this reflection question, this activity makes all the difference. So no, so much better, because of our collaboration, that they wouldn't have happened. Lynne, I'm just going to be honest, they would not have happened if we did. It's hard to think of all these things. It's so cool that you had reviewers. You had, you collaborated with your mom, you had your sister. It's just so good, and people don't realize sometimes, I've noticed that people who push forward with their books, they often have a book group. They'll often have a reader's group. You have to have something, yep, outside yourself, and you look at what you created, it's so much better for it. And I'm very impressed that it got such, first of all, Johns Hopkins, very prestigious. Um, thank you. We're evolution company, yeah, thank you. And I love that it's caught on and that people and people really need this well, you know, you know, but one in four people has a mental illness at one any one time, and half of it at some point in our lives. So not all schizophrenia, of course, like your grandmother, but you know it's mental illness is prevalent. And then if you look at everyone knows at least someone, that means, like, pretty much everybody knows some of them have mental illness. So this is not like a really rare, unusual thing, but we gotta raise awareness of the impacts on on these families, because it's hard, sometimes even from my own lived experiences, having family members and friends and women all it's difficult, it's confusing, it's overwhelming, it's really hard. And so my own personal lived experience, absolutely Lynne sustains, motivates and makes, makes relevant all of this work. Oh, it's so important. And if we, if we're aware that it's a possibility or what it looks like, we can be more receptive. We can be more helpful. I had a family member, and I thought they were acting really strangely, and I was like, why are they so difficult? Why are they doing, you know, shifting and moving and and turning on us and saying, you know, sort of, I wasn't, I wasn't tapped in to what was happening with them. And when I finally figured it out, yeah, and they figured it out, it was so much easier because then there was a name, you know, it's so important to name it absolutely. That's true, ways to handle. And I was so impressed with this person in my family, because they got on it. Man, they were like resources. And, you know, it was just wonderful. It was wonderful to see there's a way to manage mental illness, but if you don't recognize it, you know, sometimes people can just friends can act strange. I've had it happen before, where they can just act right, strange, or they don't want to see you, or, you know, whatever. There's anxiety, there's depression, and luckily, I do see people in the press talking more about it, but I still see a lot of shame, though, inside families, I fully agree. I fully agree. It's like the families talk about, you know, they don't bring casseroles. So that's kind of an antiquated phrase, I think, but the message is the same, bring flowers, you know, bring start a food train and things like that, because there is a lot, a lot of shame. Um, so yeah, you're right. It's interesting your comment, because I think you're so right, even thinking about the teenagers, you know, we wrote the first version of I'm not alone, literally, 20 years ago. Um, I don't think teens knew as much at that time. You know, the social media, all the information has blossomed immediately, so I think teens are more sophisticated now. Yeah, I just put in my thought, I do worry some about the information too much, because it's not all accurate and so, right, that makes me somewhat nervous, but yes, drives you crazy. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there, lot of bad information and wrong inflation. Here's how you kind of one thing that shocked me, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. One thing that shocked me when I first jumped on more social media was how trauma seems to be batted around, like it's a badge, like everybody wants to have a trauma that they're responding to. And I, and I was it really devalues people, you know, people's experiences, who've gone through real trauma. Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting reflection. I mean, the research again, sorry, the research shows most people do experience some sort of challenging or. Difficult event. But there's a real difference between, we call it the big T and the little T. Okay, so the traumas we're talking about, which are defined as a death or near death experience, or certainly any sort of sexual trauma or abuse, or having, you know a loved one, go through it, or being like an EMT or a police officer and seeing that every day, that's really what we're talking about for big T. Some people say, Well, I went through a divorce. Now, divorces can be very, very hard, but they're not the trauma that we're talking about, right? So I really want to differentiate those two things. Because little T, yeah, I love that. That's what we need is, is sort of a framework to think about it, because otherwise it's meaningless. If you throw that word around, and I've seen it thrown around like way too Absolutely. And I also really believe strongly and certainly write about this in our books. And this is born out by research, although most everybody, myself included, I was in a horrible car accident, was a passenger in a car accident. I mean, I've had that's very, you know, could have died easily, 80 miles an hour into a big concrete thing. I mean, certainly would have died. So again, most people do experience some sort of trauma, but fortunately, most people do not develop long term difficulties. You know, most people are resilient in the natural progression after trauma, with community support, some people Dawn, friends, family, some faith. You know, most people recover, not that you ever forget it. I'm not saying that, of course, but most people, it does not become, this is who I am. You know, I am. Oh, good, good point, yeah, and so, oh my gosh. People certainly may have depression, anxiety, substance abuse, things, but most of those things, you know, flow over time. So the lifetime prevalence of PTSD is maybe seven or 8% certainly higher among some groups like veterans and things like that. But most people do not develop PTSD, which is a good thing, and further that around a lot too. Yeah, I'll put a little plug for this too. There are really, really effective treatments available now for PTSD, and more emerging all the time, and we have some good science showing that things can really help. No, of course, not everyone goes and gets help, but there's a reason to be hopeful. That's why the name of our company, Lynne, is Seeds of Hope books, because we're always, I love that. Yeah, you know, there's so much to unpack here. It's such good stuff. And the thing that occurs to me is because I've actually been diagnosed with PTSD way back, mild PTSD. I was, I was robbed at gunpoint, and it was very sudden, and and I I didn't think it was that bad. I mean, I just, like we do when we're young, I just kept moving on, right? And, yeah, and it came up when I went to see a therapist and I did some testing, it just kind of came up. I learned so much from that, because it was buried, right? And then I got breast cancer a few years ago, and it wasn't bad. I mean, I I almost hate to it's so funny. I almost hate to talk about it, because it wasn't radiation. I mean, it was just radiation, it wasn't chemo, it wasn't a long I was so fortunate, but it was still a shock, yeah, yeah. And I started to, you know, I'm pretty savvy about these things, and I started to notice, and I'm older, so I stepped back and said, you know, you're having some interesting symptoms here. After the treatment, I also had some complications, and it was really bad. I had an infection, and I was on the couch for 17 days with antibiotics. I think that all made it worse. So I'm pretty strong, I'm pretty resilient, but I noticed I didn't want to leave the house. That's what I noticed. That was the first sign. And then my point is not to bring my story into it, but I do relate to what you're saying. It's treatable. You know, I got help, but also that you have to. It's so important, and you're doing this, and I love this, it's so important that people know this could happen to you after an event, these symptoms could happen to you. Don't shove them under the rug. Go get help. Like if more people went earlier. It must be so frustrating for you, because you talk to so many people and they come to you a little later than you wish they did. Absolutely, absolutely. That's the whole emphasis, honestly, of our our teen book, and our focus on teens is prevention. Let's kill upstream. Try to get earlier. And I mean, certainly we know, like offspring, kids whose parents have mental illness, are at higher risk for nature and nurture. But there's great research showing that if we can intervene earlier and actually have some of this wrap around, you know, help them, maybe in schools or in work or their social skills or whatever else, we could maybe prevent the development of or make the illness less intense if we can start early. But like you said, people say, Oh, it's a midlife crisis, or they're going to lock me up. There's so many barriers. We could spend a whole hour talking about barriers. Lynne, so many barriers to seeking mental health care that it's hard. Um, fears. Of course, you know so many things. But if we can help this next generation, and even you know, all generations, know what the symptoms are to look for, you know, know, to talk to someone, because it could be something else. Certainly, these symptoms can be determined. You know, affected by so many different things, substance use, of course, hormones, I mean physical health problems. So we don't want people diagnosing themselves. There's a little picture, right? Wow, Michael, I love that. See, that's one thing I really feel proud of. I raised my children to think of a therapist as just another doctor, good. And we go when we need to. And they saw me go, and they heard about my friends going and, you know, my son, we took him at when he was younger, there was an incident, and we nipped it in the bud, you know, was like an anger incident. And he loved going to this woman. She was so wonderful. She was She he was, like, eight years old, and she was so kind. And so, you know, she was very good with that age. She was a school recommended therapist, and I, I almost wanted to cry, because she turned it around for him, you know, and she taught him tools, and she was able to tell me he's incredibly sensitive, and she was telling me things that she noticed about him. It just helped us raise him, and I'm really proud that that was what I presented to the children. And I also talked about that with all my friends, because of my background, because of my grandma, I just believe we gotta dispel that shame, and you know, we gotta go for it. We gotta say, Hey, if you're having a moment, go see a therapist. It's like, the way to go. People don't, people don't always understand what happens in therapy, and they're like, afraid, absolutely, I think you nailed it. I think you nailed it. That is so right. And I think if we can see a therapist, kind of a primary care provider, you know, you go when there's an issue. It's not like, going to go every week the rest of your life, um, you know, right? People are afraid of, right, yeah, or you're seriously, people are afraid of you to lock me up, or you're going to report me to like child protective services for being a bad mom. It's, it's huge. So I love how you really role modeled. This is like you go to the physical therapist when you have a mom knee or things like that. It's like therapists are there to help us, and what great messages you sent to your kids at a very early age. I love that. Well, my mother sent that message to me. She was like, you know, she sort of diagnosed me, okay, when I was in my late 20s, and I was just, I don't again. I talk about depression on the podcast here and there, because I want people to understand it doesn't always feel like sadness. Sometimes it just feels like numbness, and you don't always recognize that in yourself. You just keep going. It's just an example of how you don't understand what's happening and somebody else could decode that like I'm amazed at how quickly therapists decode what's happening and how just that wonderful feeling of talking to somebody who's just there for you and who's objective and has all this, all these tools, I just, I'm so grateful to all the therapy I've gone to over the years. I go when I need to, and I teach my children to do that too. That's awesome. I love that, and I just would add so much of therapy is the relationship. So the first person you go to isn't like gifted, like therapist you had, or the one that your son saw. Go to someone else, the good news is they're so glad you said me a lot horrible experiences. I went to one who was absolutely horrible, but luckily, I was older, and I was able to discern that, and I wasn't. This is what makes me sad, though, if you're really hurting, it's hard to shop for a therapist. I think it'll be really important to talk about that, like, no matter how bad you're feeling, don't settle for someone that doesn't feel right, absolutely. And I actually usually say, you know, give them one or two tries. Maybe it's just a bad connection. But then it's like, You are not stuck. You have options. Go find so good to say that, because I went from the one who was horrible and she was I should have, like, if I'd been feeling better, I would have called and reported her. Oh, really, that bad, yeah, but I wasn't feeling well enough. But I went from her to this, like, Earth Mother, like, you know, just Earth Mother, you know, like my vibe, you know, like I was like, I love you. You're my people. And she was so kind, and she was so and what I was talking about was really serious, and I couldn't get past it. And she was so kind and patient, like she was the one for me, you know, so loving, so kind, so patient and so accepting, and, boy, sometimes you just need that person who has all this knowledge, you know, they're so educated, but they also have this beautiful caring, like that place. I always say when you talk with someone, it's like a sacred space, you know, and it's safe space. And so many people need that, and they don't. Even know they need it. So I want to say, if all we talk about here is, don't be afraid of it, and there's no shame in it, and you can feel so much better. Please just go. You know, the VA has a saying that I like you know, it takes the strength of the warrior to ask for help, and I think that's so true. It takes strength to say, I'm struggling. I can't do this on my own. There's some hope, just even a modicum, perhaps, to tiny, tiny blade of grass, of hope that maybe someone can help me. They don't have a magic wand, and we therapists don't have, you know, a magic pill or a magic wand, but you don't have to walk through this by yourself. And yes, we have research based skills. We can help you but that experience of being seen, of being heard, of being empowered, wow, that's huge. It is huge. So I love that we're talking about this today. So, so important. And the letters after the name sometimes, yeah, you need to have some training, right? But maybe some of these people have amazing credentials. They went to Harvard, or all this stuff. It's like, that's not as important as do. Do you really feel seen and heard? Are you dismissed in your two minute medication check or whatever it would be, you know, keep shopping, find someone. And I think it's often good to ask family or friends, or, as you said, your doctor, who? Who do you recommend? Or to school for kids recommend. They know who's good. That's so good. I love how humble you are, because you have so much experience. You have letters after your name. You're a published author. You've done amazing things, but you you've never lost that human to human, that humility and that, that you honor, that because that's so much a part of healing, is that human to human contact, you just have a gift. You were born with it. Well, thank you for saying. It makes me feel really good. Thank you. I mean, we, I'm a human being first, we're flawed with my own life challenges and everything else. And so I, I try, in all my work to lead with that, and I'm informed by all this stuff, but we got to show up as human beings first and our own stories. You know that that is what you offer opportunities for people to share and talk, and that's what people connect with, right? It's like they don't want me to cite the 52 research papers or all this shit. That's not important. You know. They want to know and hear from someone's heart. But the best doctors in any discipline, that's what they it's sort of like painters and doctors. And, you know, they have all this incredible, all these years of studying, but they get to the point where they can, you know, transform it into something very, you know, human. And so we need that. We need people who are informed, people who are knowledgeable. I'm so interested that you mentioned the vets, because I just interviewed a vet, and he's going to be rowing across the Pacific. His name is Roy Emerson, and he's an ex. Let me get this right army, like the elite Army Rangers, right? He's an Oh, and he's going to be in this tiny boat. I went to a fundraiser to pick up some his wife is a wonderful caterer, who we love and I went to pick up some of her fried chicken. We all love it. We went to the firehouse for a fundraiser, and they had the boat outside the firehouse. It's so small you would die, and they're going to be taking it out in the Pacific and rowing non stop from Monterey, California to Hawaii to raise awareness about to prevent veterans committing suicide. Wow, such a beautiful thing that he's doing. And he's talked about, we talked about, what you mentioned is It's especially hard, perhaps, for people who are soldiers, for people who are in charge, for people who never lose control to admit that they have a problem. And for this man who's, you know, from an elite force, and you know, had a great career and amazing for him to say, you know, there's help and you don't have to feel ashamed, and for him also to do the fundraising people like you, you're saving lives by doing this work. You really are. And I was so happy to have that be an episode. What an inspirational man. Wow. Very cool. You know, it just reminds me of something you and I were talking about a couple minutes ago. It was that whole idea of stigma, you know, because there have been people efforts, people's like, you know, don't stigmatize. You shouldn't stigmatize, you know, that sort of stuff. And they found that doesn't really work very well actually, you know, like the Just Say No approach. What does work is exactly what this gentleman is doing is, like sharing his own story so people can relate. You know, it's not like, Oh, I'm different because I'm psychologist, because I'm a veteran or whatever else. It's like, No, we all have struggles, you know. And so him being a role model for people and lifting that up, that's the way to decrease stigma. You know, that's the way to do. It is people openly talking about their stories, like, oh, I can relate. Oh, wow. If you're struggling and asking for help, maybe I can too. So bring awareness. Yeah, to bring awareness to it. People don't understand how bad it is, how many veterans commit suicide every day. And I just love that they're they're choosing something they're good at, which is, you know, an intense athletic endeavor. I asked a billion questions, because I had no idea how you do that. And he said, Oh, no, we wrote two hours on, two hours off. So I was like, Oh, that makes it so much easier. Hahaha, it just, I mean, rowing across an ocean, I don't know, but anyway, I just, I think it's heroic. Both of you. What you do well? Thank you. And it's it takes all of us, you know, in our different little corners of the world and different things that we do, and again, you know, most people will never go to a therapist or thing. So we really have invested huge amounts of money. We're never going to break even. This is not about making money. This is really all about trying to reach people who are so often feel invisible. And so if you know, families come like, at the library or online. I mean, you know, the PDF is like, you know, $10 This is not a lot of money to, like, buy an ebook or something, find some some comfort. Like, oh, I can really relate to that dad who talked about X, Y and Z. Really relate to that teenager who shared their story or their anger at their mom for Darn it all, why aren't you like my other friends moms? Why can't have people over? Why won't you come to my soccer game, or if you do come to my basketball game, Why do you yell and get out of control with their reps? Or why don't you shower, or whatever? It's like, Oh, it's okay to be mad. Yes, it is. You know, you can read other kids stories and their experiences, so we hope it offers some sense of comfort. I'll tell you a neat story. I was connecting with some folks on actually in Iceland, some psychiatric nurses who are using our books in their psychiatric hospitals, which is pretty cool. And this nurse just emailed me the other day and said they've been doing some programs for the teenagers whose parents have mental illness, and they've had no resources for them at all. And so this nurse gave this, this 11 year old little girl, and she got the biggest smile on her face, saying for me, because she said, there's nothing else out there. So like, to me, that makes it so worthwhile. It's like we're actually reaching kids, and that's opportunity to talk to amazing people like you. It's like, we need help. We need help. Lynne and spreading the word about like resources exist, and I'm so struck with that same old, important message that we have to stay connected with each other and remember that we're we're, you know, we need each other. You can't be in isolation. You can't be alone. You don't have to be absolutely need to always connect, and that's why, part of why I do this podcast is the stories. I know that they're going to reach somebody, and they're going to hear how someone overcame something, or they're going to get information. I don't, you know, it's so funny. I was telling somebody, it's like, I released the episodes out into the world. They're like little boats. I don't know where they go exactly, and whoever gets what they get out of it. It's so wonderful, because we're inspired when we're when we connect for other people, and we can learn from other people's examples, and especially the teenagers that they don't feel alone. That really touches my heart, yeah, because that's the name of the book. I'm not alone, you know, and I will say often times the parents like to read the book first, which makes sense, because it's even sometimes hard to know. What do I talk to my kids about? How do I open the conversation so it can be a tool for the parents as well as for the kids. That's so good. Well, you're doing the good work out there. Hey, Lynne, thank we're very proud of you. Thank you for sharing it. Is there anything we didn't talk about? Is there anything you want to add? No, the only thing I would say is people can see free chapters and resources. There are a lot of free resources on our website, so if you're willing to put in your show notes or our website, which is that, www dot seeds with an S. Seeds of Hope books.com because some people don't read the show notes. I'll put it all in the show notes. I put a lot, because I'm a writer. Show Notes are, like, extensive, but, yeah, I like to say it, some people don't read them, right? The seeds of hope. Books.com you can see, and they're available at Barnes and Noble Amazon, you know, wherever target, but that's where you can see, you know, sample chapters and things like that. So, so good. No, I just wish you well with this podcast, and thank you so much for the opportunity to be here and discuss. I just really felt like you and I connected, and that was a really good feeling about it. I'm so glad. Thank you so much for sharing, and I know you've helped people, and you'll continue to help people, and that makes me feel really good to be a tiny part of that. Absolutely, absolutely, we're all in this together. Lynne, right? Not that you got that right. Thank you again. Thank you so. Much. I.